Author Topic: Sharpening Engravers  (Read 29314 times)

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2010, 05:22:07 AM »
Quote
the Lindsay kits are set up to work with the 3/32 square stock gravers.
Not true.  I ragged on him about 1/8" bits not fitting in his fixtures.  I had bought 5 of his templates and was unable to use them, so I bought a dual angle.  I told him I was not going to make all new graver handles just so I could use his 3/32" tips.  He went into his shop and made me one that will take the 1/8" bits and had it in the mail the next day.

When you order your Lindsay templates, you can now specify that you want the 1/8" mandrel.  If you want both, it will cost you an extra $35.  This will allow you to purchase HSS or carbide lathe bits which are considerably cheaper than the "custom ground" 3/32" tips which run about 8 bucks apiece.

The Lindsay templates come with a device that you use to set the exposed length of your tips when you sharpen it.  To change the angles on a particular template, you don't modify the template as Acer suggested.  Instead, there is a chart on his website which gives length modifications to give various angles.

I bought some of the W1 square stock from MSC.  It's probably OK for brass but requires frequent resharpening (every 10 cuts or so) on lockplates and steel cast hardware.  Also, brass will build up on your tips and you should lube them frequently with Tap Magic or something similar.

Dave Kanger

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Offline KLMoors

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2010, 01:56:13 PM »
Cool. Thanks for the heads up on that. I didn't realize they could customize them so easily. I haven't had that issue with the W-1 going dull quickly. I've been real impressed with it.

Acer, I agree on the brass thing. I don't know why, but it just doesn't cut as nice as the mild steel.

Offline A.Merrill

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2010, 07:25:18 PM »
    Are the engraving tools at TOTW as good as any?    AL
Alan K. Merrill

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2010, 11:38:33 PM »
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Are the engraving tools at TOTW as good as any?

Yes and NO.  All those engraving tips and their handles are designed for hand pushed engraving, not hammer chased engraving.  Carbon steel can easily lose its temper if machine sharpened.  Of all those they offer, you only need a square graver.  You will still have to modify it and mount it in your own handle.  Plus they only have a face angle ground on them, which may or may not be suitable for the material you are engraving.  Lastly, you will still have to grind your own heels on the tools.

Buy half a dozen 1/8" HSS lathe bits and make a handle as shown in Acer's picture.  Then grind the appropriate tips on them.  Total investment...about $10 and 2 hours shop time.  You need a wriggler, a flat for script and metal removal, a heeled flat for bright cut, a 90 for straight lines and a 90 for curved lines and detail (different heels).  You can get additional sizes (3/16" and 1/4") to make small scrapers and chisels too.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

J.D.

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2010, 01:08:14 AM »
How long are these lathe bits, y'all are talking about?
The lathe bits I have seen are  only about 2" long, so do you have a source for longer bits?


Offline T*O*F

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2010, 01:44:51 AM »
Quote
How long are these lathe bits, y'all are talking about?
The lathe bits I have seen are  only about 2" long
JD,
They are 2-1/2" long and that is plenty.
Enco has the best pricing.  www.use-enco.com
Order some and also some 3/8" aluminum rod.




Then go to Smoky Mountain Knife Works and buy 3 diamond stones in 240, 600, and 1200 grits.



Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline A.Merrill

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2010, 03:14:05 AM »
    TOF, what degree of face angle do you use for brass ?   What for steel ?        AL
Alan K. Merrill

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2010, 04:01:00 AM »
Al,
You have to experiment to see what works best for you.  As a general rule, the harder the material, the greater the angle.  45 degrees is an all purpose angle.  Softer materials can range from 30 to 45.  Harder materials 45 to 60.  The face angle is not as critical as the heel or lift angle, aka clearance angle.

When you start cutting, you drive your graver into the metal from the perpendicular, then lower it to make your cut.  If you have no heel, you cannot control the depth of cut.  It will go too deep, you will compensate, then it will go too shallow.  This is called porpoising.  If you grind a heel on your graver, say 15 degrees average, you will start your cut as normal, then drop your graver to a 15 degree angle.  The tip of the graver will now track at that angle.  Heel angles can also vary, both for your personal cutting style, as well as for special applications.  Again, this is something you experiment to see what works for you.  A longer heel allows the cutting of straight lines because it stays in the groove better.  A shorter heel is for cutting scrolls and details, because it does not drag when you go in an arc.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline A.Merrill

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2010, 12:24:16 AM »
    I want to thank everybody for the info.  Thanks Acer for the diagram. And TOF, you explained things very well. I think it will help improve my engraving allot.    Thanks again,    AL
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 04:02:30 AM by A.Merrill »
Alan K. Merrill

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2010, 07:17:02 PM »
    OK, most everybody say Lindsay, so.    I have 4 push an 2 square engravers. What part of the sharping fixture do I need?    AL
I just ordered one ----
Quantity Name SKU Each Total
1 Lindsay Graver Sharpener without diamond bench stones   $89.00 $89.00
 
Subtotal $89.00
Shipping: First Class Mail® $3.79
Paypal Fee $2.67
Total $95.46
 
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Offline Ryan McNabb

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2010, 11:09:54 AM »
Good gracious.  ??? ::)  What do you think John Sheets used?  (WWJSD?)

Offline J. Talbert

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2010, 03:37:31 PM »
You can look at it like this...
Would you rather be a full time tool sharpener and part time engraver, or a full time engraver and part time tool sharpener?  ;D (To paraphrase Lynton Mckenzie)

It's a question of where you want to concentrate your efforts.

Jeff
There are no solutions.  There are only trade-offs.”
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Offline Captchee

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2010, 04:48:57 PM »
  Thinking on this , one question that hasn’t came up , that probably should have , is .
 What type of engraving is wanting to be done ?

 If it’s the  rather simple American type found on many long rifles , then really you only need a square graver 
  If  one is looking for the much higher quality  engravings found on  European pieces , then  you need to be looking at a  learning  how to make gravers to do those types of cuts  .

 What I really like about the Lindsey system is that  your not constantly  resetting the  angle  guide.
 Ones the  engraver blank is in the  template , you just roll the template over so as to  sharpen the next angle .

 you also get the proper angle every time .

 in the end though its up to the person  doing the engraving . for years i cut  square  chase gravers with not guide at all .

Offline A.Merrill

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2010, 01:04:52 AM »
    What weight hammer do you guy's use            Captchee, do you feel the Lindsey system improved your engraving ?
Alan K. Merrill

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2010, 01:30:13 AM »
WWJSD?

I went to an engraving class, and the teachers were Italian full time engravers. I paid very close attention to their sharpening techniques, figuring that to get the same effect in engraving as they do, I would replicate their face angle, bevel, etc. To my great shock, they used no fixtures, no angle gages. Just a bench grinder and a ruby stone. Sharpened the way they have sharpened their whole career, by feel, by eye.

I, however, have always had trouble getting a good working point, and the fixtures have become indispensable for ME.
But there is a market for these fixture with good reason: because not everyone can sharpen by eye.

Never be ashamed by buying more tools, for this is a primary reason why we build guns. I'm right, aren't I? Fess up, now.
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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2010, 01:32:19 AM »
For light engraving, a very light hammer, or if you can learn to cut by hand, push graving.

For heavier, deeper cuts one of those engraving hammers as sold by Gesswein or Rio Grande or GRS.

The engraving hammers have a nice, wide face, which helps a lot to hit the punch.  ;D
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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2010, 02:17:18 AM »
Good one, Ryan!

WWJSD?
A takeoff on the currently popular bracelets, etc. proclaiming "WWJD" = What Would Jesus Do?

I'm right, aren't I? Fess up, now.
Yes, indeed, you are right.  I'll use any excuse to procure more tools.

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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2010, 04:16:31 AM »
currently popular bracelets, etc. proclaiming "WWJD" = What Would Jesus Do?

While fully aware of the acronym, I am saying that not everyone has the eye to sharpen by hand. When you end up spending more time sharpening than engraving, it is time to invest in some simple sharpening fixtures.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Captchee

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Re: Sharpening Engravers
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2010, 05:01:47 AM »

 i agree with Acer .  one can learn to sharpen by eye , it takes time . but IMO even then , if you try  to  do specific angles  for given work , you will see an improvment regarless of the system you use .


   What weight hammer do you guy's use            Captchee, do you feel the Lindsey system improved your engraving ?

 oHHHHHH ya and then some .
  for many years i engraved with a chase graver . but  my hands  after years of using a hammer for construction , they will no longer hold the graver  proper .
 I can tell you that a person can engrave just as fine and light with a chase graver as a push graver . IMO you have  little more control and visibility  with the push .
 But  if you take a quick trip over to the Benelli , you will see  a lot of very fine work that’s done with chase gravers

 But anyway . my engraving thus  went from  reasonable , to horrid . So I stopped engraving all together . Then I came across the GRS system .
 For me it did not work . The vibration simply  tore my joints in my hand up .
Sent  everything back  after a couple weeks . GRS  was great to work with . They understood and refunded every last cent .

So I gave up again . Then last year  I was looking on Steve Lindsey’s  web sight  and saw he was having a  contest for a classic.  The person with the most posts after 3 months  “excluding their own “ won one of his classic ’s .
 I figure I didn’t have a chance   but I gave her a chance and did everything I could include beg pleading and groveling  LOL  .
 My topic was  entitled “ Thoughts “ and was an attempted to  gather  the when and why of  the changes seen in styles of gun engraving as the art  moved from Europe to the Americas.
   I ended up with 22 pages of photos of different engraving plates  and 214 posts opinions
http://www.engravingforum.com/showthread.php?t=1391
 I won the 1000+ classic engraver  and then bought the foot control and sharpening system .  I use my shop compressor with regulators  and small airbrush compressor to run my classic .
 I even use Steves  small regulator set up  that uses Co2 paint ball gun tanks .
  
When I got the classic ,  to be honest my first opinion after opening the box was “what the @#$% sure glade I didn’t pay 1000 for this .
 But that  opinion fell to the  round file   on the very first cut of the first practice plate .
 It cuts like a hot wire  through foam , even on hard gun steels . No vibration  and  I no longer have any pain even after days at the bench . IMO  its well worth every last dime  and in fact probably more

 To give you an example this last spring  while at a rendezvous . Not to mention having alittle to much  of the Pie that was going around  I  was doing alittle to much bragging about how wonderful Steves system  was . And basically was told to put up or shut up LOL
  So my blood  temp went up and accepted .
 I had one of the fellas cut a 2 inch thick round off of a piece of fire wood .
 Driving a a nail through the center I made an impromptu  turn table  .
 I then took a piece of aluminume  lawn chair brace and proceeded to engrave it  by the fire light .  No scope , no visor , no vice

With the Lindsey classic . Using only his universal point .
 Next morning this was what was on the log



 If you have the basics , it will  improve your engraving .
 It will not give you the basics . You still have to learn those .

 There is one BIG problem IMO with Steve’s system .
 Its just to  easy to do to much  and  ruin a rifle  .  Its also rather hard to  make yourself stay with a type of engraving that’s correct for  work on long rifles .
 Its almost like the minute you fire it up you mind just wants to run with it .
 Thus when you look up   your left wondering  where you lost control  LOL

pS another aspect that  probably doesnt fit here  but  if you turn the  clasic down to a low setting .
 using the same universal  point . you can do this on horn .
 this was my very first attempt  at this type of worked  .
  seeing how will it did on horn . i emidiatly bought the Balino  templates  stebve offers .
 i have as yet not had a chance to use them but im hoping this winter
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 05:20:36 AM by Captchee »