Gentleman brought over this old rifle

[KirkD]

Hello Gents. This evening an older fellow about 83 years old stopped by to show me his grandfather's rifle. Now his father was born in 1872, so his grandfather was born a good deal before that. Whether he got it new or not I do not know, but the fellow told me it used to be a flintlock and was then converted to a percussion. I couldn't find any printing anywhere on the rifle. I don't know a thing about it, so I'm hoping someone here can enlighten me and I'll pass the info on to the old gent. Here are the photos .....

Right side of buttstock ...


Right side of buttstock with little hatch open ...


Right side of lock. The hammer has been bent down a bit and is now jammed between the nipple and the spring that slaps the hammer down.


Here is a photo of the lock from the top ....


Photo of top of wrist showing little silver medallion ....


Left side ...


Right side of forestock ...


Right side of muzzle. It has been cut down ....


Muzzle showing octagonal rifling ....


Trigger area. He says the front thingy is the 'hair trigger' ....


Left side of stock ...


Bottom edge of buttstock ....


Top edge of buttstock ...


Underside of forearm ....


Fancy rear sight ...

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

What a fine rifle. Hope the owner will allow us to add it to the Library after this thread slows.
Hurricane.

[rich pierce]

Sure is a dandy with an unusual conversion to percussion. Really nice to find one in attic condition like that.

[scooter]

Perhaps he who posted will advise whether signed on barrel, name or initials. It is surely Upper Susquehanna school, PA, and a jim dandy example at that. And, relative to school, early. I have photographed a Morrison of similar patchbox. Note also that while the school is absolute, it seems many, notably Earnheart, went to OH and took skill with them. Morrison used the mule ear lock extensively. I have not seen an Earnheart w/ that lock style. Unless whole lock was changed I never heard of a mule ear lock conversion from flintlock + strongly suspect that story is horsehockey. I will admit gun looks early enough to have been made in late flint period. Artistically it is a wonderful gun. That toe plate alone is as meritorious as they come!

[Arnie Dowd]

Gentlemen -  What I believe we are looking at is a wonderful UNTOUCHED example of a beautiful Longrifle of the Upper Susquehanna School in its most artictic and classic form.  I would also suggest that the rifle was never flintlock but rather
always a "mule-ear" percussion with exposed mainspring which were fairly common in that area.  The piece would date circa 1830 +/-  Sure wish someone would have brought that old rifle to my house

[Majorjoel]

Best rifle of this type I have ever seen! That front trigger with its little projection is very special and may help to put a name on this piece if there isn't a signature.

[nord]

Just compared the photos to my Morrison. There are similarities and there are differences.

The hammer is very similar and I believe cast by the maker. At the very minimum the lock is homemade as is the hammer. Too close to mine for coincidence.

This gun has a spring to hold the sear in place or rebound it after firing. Mine is simpler and the rebound spring is internal.

Trigger group is significantly different.

Patchbox resembles mine, but fancier.

Inlays speak of the same school but perhaps not the same maker. Then again, this is a fancier gun than mine.

No full side shots to agree nor disagree about barrel length. Mine is original and fairly short for a long rifle. Very well balanced in fact. The somewhat shorter than expected barrel may not have been cut. This especialy at the muzzle end as the grooves fall correctly into the 12 and 6 o'clock positions.

So... Maybe a somewhat earlier Morrison though I tend to believe more probably a contemporary. I'd not be surprised if they were neighbors and shared components.

[Fullstock longrifle]

That is one heck of a rifle! I also wish someone had brought it to my house, the quality is very nice.  From what I can see from the pictures, it's the earliest side slapper lock I think I've ever seen, and the quality of the workmanship seen on the rifle, is carried on to the lock, (possibly made by the gunsmith?).  I agree with the previous comments that its an early Upper Susquehanna rifle, but it's hard to say who the maker is, unless it's signed.  Look for a signature or initials on the top barrel flat between the rear site and the tang.  one last comment, tell the owner not to do anything to the rifle unless it's done by a competent gunsmith who has done a lot of work with original longrifles, this gun is too nice to be improperly restored.

Frank

[scooter]

For those lucky enough to have my Behold the Long Rifle, look at patchbox on unsigned gun on p. 23. Also the Conrad Horn on p. 22. Frankly, I now lean toward Horn. I will not post more opinion until original person says whether it is signed. Just in case this is so read below -- and even of it isn't this makes interesting reading.


Horn, Conrad (1803-1879). gunsmith. 1820-62, Hazleton, Luzerne County. Founded the town of West Hazleton and was one of the first justices in the town.  He married Catherine Fanar. Horn died on 5 December 1879 in Hazle Twp, Luzerne County, PA about age 76. 1860 Census: Hazle Twp, Luzerne County, PA. The household headed by Mary C Horn, age 77 and blind, living with children Conrad H, age 52, a gunsmith; Harriet, age 47; Thomas, age 45, a farmer; and Casper, age 36, a contractor. Found on Poll List for Sugarloaf Twp, Luzerne County, dated March 20, 1835. 1870 Census. Household headed by Conrad Horn, age 65, a gunsmith born in PA, and listed as his sister Harriet, age 59, born in PA. Will probated 31 Jan 1893, Hazle Twp, Luzerne County, PA. Will N-234, executor Harriet Horn of Hazle Twp. [tax; Census; Gardner, Small Arms Makers, p. 95; Boyd's Pa. State Directory].

The Golden Circle, or Democratic Clubs, so numerous in Berks county a year or so ago--were organized, it seems, in all the Copperhead localities throughout Pennsylvania. The same secret influence that induced the Heidelbergers to make hair infamous, though harmless braid into this city, manifested itself in open and armed opposition to the government in other and more excitable communities. It is now clearly ascertained that the rioters and murders in Carbon and adjoining counties belonged to this organization, and only carried out its teachings in their full spirit. A number of these rioters, arrested several months ago, are now on trial before a military commission sitting in this city. In the trial of Philip Bergman (one of these rioters) last week, it was shown by the testimony "that the prisoner belonged to the sworn secret organization known as the 'Golden Circle'." They held their meetings at the house of Conrad Horn, above Hazleton.
[Berks and Schuylkill Journal, Saturday, February 6, 1864]

[Don Getz]

Scooter.....I'm not familiar with Konrad Horn's work, and I haven't had a chance to take a glance into your book on the
similarities of that patch box.  Several reasons I think it belongs in the Snyder-Union-Northumberland area is when you
look at the overall architecture of the gun, the engraving, and the carving behind the cheek piece.   Occassionally we
will see an example of a builder that just goes way beyond his normal building techniques, and I sometimes wonder if
it wasn't one of his early guns that he did to expose his abilities.   Quite a few years ago a Joe Long rifle was donated to
the Muncy, Pa. historical society.   They took it to Bill Kennedy for restoration, which he did, but, to me, it was one of the
best Joe Longs I have ever looked at, it even had a swamped barrel, which is really unusual.   I have never really studied
Morrison rifles that close, but I would lean this way on this gun......it sure is a knock out..........Don

[Don Getz]

Just noticed a few more things on that gun.......check out the "modified" football sideplate, which is a Snyder county
thing, also it has what appears to be a "violin" escutcheon under the front lock bolt, no connection there, but really
unusual......Don

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

Are there marks on the top barrel flat behind the rear site?? I downloaded and magnified the bottom picture and indeed there is one end of an "engraved box" suggesting that it might enclose a barrel signature.
Hurricane

[rlm]

If it wasn't originally flint why would there be have a vent pick holder under the ckeek piece?

[nord]

Not unusual with a mule ear percussion ignition. Actually little different than the flint ignition and a straight shot with a pick to eliminate fouling.

[scooter]

I should hate to go on presence/ absence of pick holders as an indicator of whether a gun was made in flint originally. I have seen several guns that I believed were original percussion but had pick holders. Frankly, it seemed as practical with the percussion lock as flintlock to me.

[rlm]

You guys are sellin but I'm not buyin

[KirkD]

Gentlemen, I want to thank you very much for your comments. As I mentioned in my initial post, I know nothing about this sort of firearm. My specialty is old Winchesters, and I was not able to help the gentleman out with regard to information, so I am very pleased at the information you are able to provide.

Regarding looking for markings: I looked the old rifle all over for markings and could see none. However, I did not know specifically where to look and a very careful inspection may reveal some sort of signature, initials or markings. I will see if I can make a trip to the owner's house to make a more detailed inspection and, perhaps, take some more detailed photographs for this forum.

Regarding Photos: If there are any special parts of the rifle that are especially important for me to photograph, please let me know and I will see what I can do. I can't believe I forgot to take full length photos, but I will try to take some better ones when I can arrange a visit.

The old gentleman is not a collector. I already mentioned to him the danger of doing anything to the rifle that would ruin its originality, but I will reiterate this to him again.

Thank you again for your input. Please let me know what areas I should photograph in more detail.

[nord]

And I'd say that's your right. Allow me to point out though that if this is an early percussion rifle, old habits tended to die hard. Further, caps were very corrosive. Combined with the quality of much of our domestic black powder during that period I can see where a pick could have been very handy.

And after we've discussed and disagreed... Does it really matter? This is a great gun.

[Steppenwolf]

Kirk, Glad you made it over:-)


My first post and I have been here a year.

[Spotz]

That patchbox looks like Charles Baum and the carving backs up that attribution.  Morrison is the one we turn to for most of the Upper Susquehanna mule ear rifles, however.  Look at the Morrison sold at Julia a few years back and you have its mate.  Morrison or Baum without a doubt.       

[Spotz]

Many Upper Susquehanna mule ear rifles have vent picks and I don't think this was ever converted.  It always was a mule ear in my opinion. 

[Don Getz]

Some of you who are unknowing might think that because it has two lock bolts that it was originally built as a flint gun.
This just happens to be the one situation where this does not hold true.....these mule ear locks were normally built with
two lock bolts.   To confirm this, all you would have to do is remove the lock and look at the lock inlet...much different with
a mule ear.   Several years ago I walked into the KRA show room and Howard Fundukian from Michigan called me over.
Showed me this beautiful butt stock which I immediated thought to be a Joe Long, it was busted right thru the lock area.
After examining it a bit, I suddenly noticed the lock inlet, or at least the rear half of it, and it had an inlet for a mule ear
lock.   I immediately thought of Morrison, but this just looked more "Joe Long" to me.   Years ago I was at the Pottstown
show and was shown a gun that was signed on the barrel, "Morrison & Long"...interesting..............Don

[nord]

Don -

I tend to think you may have hit it correctly. This gun has some features I can't readily attribute to Morrison could easily be attributed to Long. Mostly the "football" sideplate, some of the inlays, and the cheekpiece. Patchbox could go either way.

Obviously without a signature we'll be left to speculate. 

[Spotz]

Never say never but the engraving on the patchbox would rule out Joe Long in my opinion unless this is a joint Long and Morrison project.  Very rarely does Long engrave.  If the contributor could provide a picture between the rear sight and tang, we might stop all this guessing...that narrow, script M from Morrison would end the speculation.  Otherwise, we are left to guess.  I would say 70% chance we are dealing with Morrison, 15% chance we are dealing with Baum, 10% we are dealing with Bates and 5% Joe Long. 

[KirkD]

Gentlemen, I am going to see if I can arrange a trip to the owner's home on Monday. I will take a completely new set of photographs in better lighting and more carefully done. I will especially focus on areas that have been mentioned, including the area between the rear sight and the tang. If all goes well, I hope to be able to post the new set of photos Monday evening.