English sporting rifle

[Robby]

I'm making an early, big bore, flintlock, English sporting rifle. I have never held or even seen one first hand. I have gathered many pictures, the the two sets of plans (cap locks) that TOW offers, and much information here. I am looking at the drawings of the two cap lock rifles, and measuring the wrist area. The width measures 1-3/16" X 1-19/32", these dims are pretty close depending on measuring, inside, outside, or on the lines. Is typical for this type of gun? I think it would form into a very nice oval, but it seems too high to me and was wondering if this might be a feature of the later cap lock era. The barrel is 1-1/8" at the breech.
Robby

[caliber45]

Robby -- This is mere speculation (and I'm sure there'll be differing opinions), but the half-stock, shorter-barreled "Hawken"-style rifles were made that way for two reasons. Weight and horses. The weight is self-explanatory, of course. The barrel length was dictated/suggested by the fact that those rifles "went West" with "go . . . young man," and quite often on horseback. It was awkward to carry a long rifle at right angles to a horse. I'd also suggest that a thicker wrist evolved because a rifle bouncing around across a saddle horn took a lot more beating than did one carried by a woodsman in, say, Pennsylvania. Just a thought . . . paulallen tucson az

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I don't have any measurements for it but here is a picture of a Griffin Rifle.....About 1750 I think..Looks to me that the wrist is pretty cylindrical ...perhaps a tiny bit wider than height

[Dphariss]

The Griffin rifle is described to some extent in DeWitt Bailey's " British Military Flintlock Rifles".
If is apparently cast off to allow righthand shooting with the left eye according the this book.
Its 70 caliber with 1 turn in 72" 15 grooves.
Barrel is 1.150 at the breech, .990 at the waist and 1.095 at the muzzle, 23 7/8" long.
There is a FS rifle in "English Guns and Rifles" by George that is smaller bore 54 IIRC and longer barreled. Its also probably 1780-90.
Dan

[northmn]

As I shoot with the left eye and looking at the Griffin rifle photos, I do not agree with Bailey.  A left eyed cast off is far more off set and more pronounced.  That is close to a normal cast off.  Another point about the half stock English rifles and their design is that they are "sporting rifles"  and were transported across the world with their owners.  They were designed to fit into hard cases about suit case size.  Half stock does this very well, just like a double shotgun case I have that is designed to hold a broken down double.  The British were never enchanted with the long rifles and their Baker rifle, used by the military, only had a 30 inch barrel.  I made a mistake on the first half stocked English inspired gun I built, a Fowler" and made the butt stock too much like a Lancaster.  The English rifles had the design down to perfection for recoiling away from the face.  The top of the comb was more sloped down than a Lancaster's  and the wide buttplate designed to recoil more straight in to the shoulder.  Also the cheekpiece and comb are sloped such that it does not give one the cheek acorns you get from a poorly designed stock.  This is especially true of the percussions.  When one understands that they liked larger bores where a 20 bore is a small deer rifle, you can appreciate these refinements.   Also appreciate the fact that when you build one, the originals were assembled by several "specialists" that would add their hand to the rifle.  The engravers were professional engravers, those that checkered did checkering and so forth.

DP

 

[James Rogers]

I agree with DP. There is not enough cast to make that a crossover stock.
I also agree that in the percussion era the British had stock design more consistent.
At the time this gun was made stock dimensions ran the gamut although the general "Georgian" design had pretty much fallen into place. There is way too much comb drop for most people on the gun pictured. So as the cast off might appear in excess (but not to the point of a crossover, the comb drop is in the same boat also.

[Dphariss]

I don't think so either from the photos but I have not had the gun in my hands so I cannot say for sure. Nor do I know how Bailey got his information.
The photo shows at least an inch of cast off and this is a lot with no cheek rest. Enough to make it difficult for the average person to shoot it easily. 1/4" is about the norm for for cast off.
This rifle has 1/4" and a pretty good cheekrest and it fits very well. 1" is going to be difficult for a normal person to work well.


Dan

oops forgot this

[Robby]

Well, I do plan on a cast off of about 1/4", and a cheek rest, still up in the air over the wooden patch box. What I think Dr. Tim's picture points out, to me anyway, is the wrist, It does look more tube like, as opposed to an oval, and a large oval at that, if the drawings I have are accurate. I have the Mortimer book and there are a few early flint rifles there, it is hard to tell if the wrist is more round than oval. Probably a distinction without a difference, but I'm just trying to get it right.
Robby

[Jim Kibler]

Keep in mind that earlier English pieces often had barrels with very large breeches.  Somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 3/8" is not uncommon for mid eithteenth century work.  This will allow for a significantly wider wrist.

[keweenaw]

The wrist shape depends a lot on the period.  The very early flint guns tend to have rather thin, round wrists.  By the time we get to the mid 19th century percussion rifles the wrists are much more oval.  The mid 19th cent. pieces are typically designed to allow the use of a tang peep sight and the taller wrist works for this.


The architecture of an 1850's piece is much closer to what we would consider a modern stock design.


Tom

[Acer Saccharum]

While this is not a rifle, it is remarkably like the Griffin piece mentioned above. It has a big breeched barrel, and you can see how this affects the top profile of the gun. Round wrist, runs very far down into the butt.

[Jim Kibler]

Tom,

Any chance you have a closer picture of the lock of the gun you just showed?  Is the gun signed?  Any idea of date of manufacture? 

Thanks,
Jim

[Robby]

Thanks for all the pictures and information. From what I gather, a gun in the 1790 to 1800 era would have a more tubular wrist, maybe slightly ovate with the long axis being the height. Another observation based on the photo's shown and the few I have is that the line of the comb seems to ,consistently, intersect with the center of the barrel at the breech. Am I seeing this correctly? I also plan on checkering the wrist and forearm. From undated pictures in the Mortimer book, it seems this can be an early feature as well, Yes? I have never done checkering before, and looking at Snyder's pictures I have gone from trepidation, to thoroughly intimidated, Oh well, I will endeavor to persevere!
Robby

[northmn]

As I mentioned before, it takes an extremely talented individual to build a rifle to the level that these were made as several extremely talented individuals made the original better English Rifles (someone said that a Manton will have 28 different individuals completeing it).  I am currently working on a half stock flintlock (late period) and know it will not be up to the standards of the originals.  The best I can state is that it is a "fantasy gun" as some call them, an American version.  Even so, it's function is that of an English gun, in that it has a shorter barrel and larger bore.  The experience of using the gun will be roughly equivalent to that of the English guns.  Do the best you can and enjoy the rifle.

DP

[Robby]

"As I mentioned before, it takes an extremely talented individual to build a rifle to the level that these were made"
Well, that leaves me out, but as mentioned above, I will endeavor to persevere!
Robby

[Kermit]

Interesting piece, Acer. Can you tell us about it?

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Robby, Consider having someone else do the fine parts like engraving and checkering...Someone who is really expert........Your gun will be the better for it....No one shouold think that you can do better than a team of artisans by yourself.

[Robby]

um, uh, er, then what would be the point. I would rather fail mightily, than farm it out to an "expert"! Really Dr. Tim Boone, I would think, you would understand that.
"Follow Me"
Robby

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Yes....but,  ........... If you feel good about each part go for it.                  Hey it is your gun.            I am building an English rifle and I think I can do reasonably well on the carving, but my engraving doesn't come close to English standards so I farmed out the engraving..beautifully done too!!

Hey if Griffin and Manton and the boys could do it....... But then I am only a amateur hobbyist at this point.....

[keweenaw]

Jim,   Which Tom?  Of course the one I posted is signed - Thomas Snyder, Gunmaker.  2008.

[Jim Kibler]

Thanks Tom Snyder.  I was originally refering to Acer's gun, but am glad I was sort of ambiguous!  That is a beautiful lock.  Thanks for showing it.

[Acer Saccharum]

Tom- which one? There is always that confusion. Tom Curran, Tom Snyder, Tom Caster, Tom Elgan......

On that short gun I posted, I have many pictures on my HD, and even made a drawing. I believe it to be 1740's. It is very light and fine, just the thing for a fracas. It points like a pistol, a very quick handling piece.

links to more pix:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/Tom45-70/Original%20gun%20photos/DSC_0003.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/Tom45-70/Original%20gun%20photos/DSC_6169.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/Tom45-70/Original%20gun%20photos/DSC_6198.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/Tom45-70/Original%20gun%20photos/DSC_6158.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/Tom45-70/Original%20gun%20photos/DSC_5151.jpg

[Joey R]

The English gentlemans rifle of Turvey's is 1740's-1750? It is the rifle that Jim Chambers sporting rifle kit is based.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

English sporting rifles from all eras are wonderfully designed with the shooter in mind.  During the late flint and early percussion era, their stock design with a comb that is practically parallel to the bore, makes for a natural pointer and a big bored gun will have negligible recoil.  That is to say, the recoil is completely manageable and by no means hard on the shooter's body.  The usually short barrel makes for a quick and lively piece.  The German Jaeger rifle is a close second to all these virtues...in my opinion.

Tom S...love the work on that sporter!
Tom C...love the restoration of that pelter!

Thanks to you both for the stimulation.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

...check out the screw driver slot in that lock bolt!