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| | |-+  Bending Percussion Hammer R. Long Lock
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Author Topic: Bending Percussion Hammer R. Long Lock  (Read 3370 times)
Majorjoel
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« on: November 12, 2010, 08:42:41 AM »

A while back TOF wanted to see pictures of the Ron Long lock that came with my Hawken project. Sorry Dave for the delay, but things are just now coming together to the point of my next question. From the pictures you can see that the hammer needs a tad of upward bending as well as a slight bend inboard. Before I do anything, I still have to go back and fine tune the lock plate/internal parts inletting. I had it perfect, then when the barrel was bolted down through the trigger plate.....things moved. I wish these Hawkens would have used the two bolt lock holding system of the good ole flintlock era! That was a much more sturdy set up. Anyway I don't want to change history, just get it right. My questions are regarding bending the hammer. I do not want to break it by cold bending as past experience reminds me. What is the heating method I should use? I just have a propane torch and a maps torch. Would I heat it to red hot and let it air cool slowly to soften then bend or what?? Thanks all for any help here. I have also included a couple of pictures of the assembled Long lock. It is the prettiest jem of a percussion lock I have ever had the pleasure of playing with. Smooth as 30 year old scotch!               
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Joel Hall
Majorjoel
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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2010, 08:44:29 AM »

     
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Joel Hall
Dave B
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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2010, 08:52:14 AM »

Captjoel,
Nice project. The mapp torch should do the job. Bend the hammer while its red hot and your done. Before doing that I would make sure to seat that nipple completely down. It may be not far out of alignment with regard to at least one plane. I use a box end wrench to slip over the nose of the hammer to bend it to the proper position.
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Dave Blaisdell
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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2010, 09:13:53 AM »

These is not brittle hard steel and you should be able to bend it cold.  By the looks of it you don't have to move it much.
I would hold the lower portion of the hammer in a vise and use an adjustable, open end wrench to give it a "tweak",
should be no problem..............Don
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Dphariss
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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2010, 09:29:04 AM »

I hope the nipple goes down farther than that.
Breech was not drilled properly for the nipple.
This is a big part of the problem.
And the whole nipple seat area is too small really but this could be fixed with a Dremel tool I think.
Once the lock is set in right one screw is all that is needed this eliminates to problem of getting a large diameter loading rod past the front lock bolt.

I would have the lock plate, hammer and bridle case hardened in colors. But the alloy of everything else that should be hardened is unknown so doing the breech and other parts could be a problem.

Dan
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T*O*F
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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2010, 11:03:41 AM »

Quote
I hope the nipple goes down farther than that.
Breech was not drilled properly for the nipple.
If you look closely at the picture with the view from the barrel back and compare the nipple angle with the flats, you will see that the hole was drilled at an angle.  Properly drilled, the nipple would not lean toward the offside of the gun and it would seat properly.

For bending the hammer, I do as others have said.....cold and with a crescent wrench.  However, for the other bend I have a pair of large snap ring pliers.  These spread rather than clamp.  I heat the hammer and spread it with the pliers.
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P.W.Berkuta
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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2010, 11:43:26 AM »

In the first picture from what I see is that the lock plate is not seated against the barrel (gap at top - touching at bottom). First set the lock plate flush to the barrel - this will bring the hammer in closer to the nipple. I would then make sure that the nipple is seated into the breach plug. I would then tweak the hammer -- heat it with your Mapp gas and use a adjustable wrench to bend in direction that will bring the hammer nose to the center of the hammer.
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2010, 11:47:07 AM »

Take the lock apart so that the hammer is off the lock.  Clamp it securely and heat the vertical flat part red.  To raise the hammer's nose, you cannot likely bend the round section of the hammer - just the flat, so it needs to be stretched a little so that the nose reaches farther forward...just a bit.  Likewise, it needs a tiny bit of a twist inward to align with the nipple...again, just a little.
Dan is spot on, as usual.  Your nipple is not seated.  The face of the nipple seat must be flat where the nipple bottoms.  This can be done with a milling machine, or carefully with a dremel and stones.
I don't know if it's HC for a Hawken or not, but I always split the nose of my percussion rifles, so that the cap has a place to fracture.  It makes removing the spent cap from the hammer cup a lot easier.  I'll see if I can find a picture to illustrate that.
That's a great looking lock.  I've had a lot of trouble finding a hammer like that.
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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Majorjoel
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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2010, 12:27:36 PM »

This just happens to be one of those nipples that is oversized for the two special nipple wrenches that I own. I used needle nose plyers to get it seated where it is in the pictures. I cannot turn it in any further with the plyers. I think the nipple is bottoming against the inner wall of the bolster. Dan, or Taylor....are you saying I need to hone the inner bolster wall so the nipple will seat flush against the bolster floor? Or should I turn the nipple itself down a tad to achieve the same thing?
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Joel Hall
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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2010, 02:01:16 PM »

Quote
Dan, or Taylor....are you saying I need to hone the inner bolster wall so the nipple will seat flush against the bolster floor?
I still say that the hole is drilled and tapped crooked.  It leans to the inside.  Even if you do that, it will seat on the inner side and there will be a gap on the outer side.  Look closely at the first picture in the first post.
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A dedicated person with just a pocketknife can accomplish more than a lazy person with an entire toolbox.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2010, 04:14:58 PM »



This is the hammer for an English sporting rifle, but I do the same for the Hawken rifle as well, because the function is the issue.  Perhaps someone can enlighten us as to whether the Hawken bros. did this.
One thing that this does, in addition to busting the cap allowing it to fall free by itself, is to increase the anvil inside the hammer cup, effectively increasing the length of the throw.
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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Dphariss
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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2010, 07:34:59 PM »

The nipple seat being drilled and tapped out of line can make this difficult.
Someone's fixture was faulty or they didn't have one. The casting does not appear to have be designed to give adequate room for the nipple. It could have been copied from breech without allowing for shrinkage.
This has set the nipple too close to the bore and resulted in the  nipple seat area not being large enough or it was designed by someone who was not a gun maker.
In any case its needs metal removal so the nipple can seat properly. Die grinder or maybe a Dremel, milling machine.
This requires careful examination of any cavity in the breech before removing any metal.

Its a major pain when things are done wrong initially.

Definitely cut a V in the front of the hammer nose.
Dan

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"American Girls and American Guys
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When we see Old Glory Flying   There's a lot of men dead   So we can sleep in peace at night   When we lay down our head"
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Majorjoel
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« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2010, 06:50:57 AM »

Thank you guy's for your observations regarding the faulty nipple alignment. Funny how you can get working to solve one problem and run into unforseen trouble that puts the initial problem on hold. This build has had more than it's share of snags. It has tested my patience level to the outer limits. Maturity has taught me to sit back and take a few deep breaths. Smile and get on with the show. I vowed many years ago to never let an inanimate object get the best of me. Anything made by the hand of man can and always will break down at one point or another. OK......I'm going to order another breech plug from TOW and get things refitted when it gets here. I will also wait to bend the hammer until the new set up points to their proper locations. In the meantime I'll get that lock back to flush with the barrel and continue in the other areas. I really appreciate the help and guidence given here by all!! Smiley
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Joel Hall
Dave B
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« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2010, 11:28:33 AM »

Joel,
I wouldnt throw in the towel on the  breach. Who's to say your next breach is not going to have the same problem. The things listed here are fixable with only minor tweeks. I would be focusing on seating all the parts to where they are supposed to be first then re-assess the problem. Is the breach tang barrel assembly fully seated in the wood? The picture may be wrong but the snail section looks like it could be seated into the lock plate a little further. As before mentioned the bolster of the lock needs to be seated to the barrel. If the combination of a minor seating of the barrel into the stock as well as the lock plate the hammer is now in perfect alignment top to bottom as well as side to side. Grinding out the side clearance for the nipple with the dremil is a good way to go as long as once its clear you get full seating of the base of the nipple. To get the best results. I would get a piloted reamer to clear the side blocking the full nipple seating as well as guarantee a good seating surface for the bottom of the nipple. Really you are not that far from having it squared away.
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Dave Blaisdell
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« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2010, 09:42:43 AM »

Not adding any suggestions, just wanted to thank Captjoel for posting these pics, and all the suggestions about solving these issues.  Just in time since I'm starting a Hawken project too.  With a few more updates and pics, this could turn into a tutorial.
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Dphariss
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« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2010, 10:15:13 AM »

Joel,
I wouldnt throw in the towel on the  breach. Who's to say your next breach is not going to have the same problem. The things listed here are fixable with only minor tweeks. I would be focusing on seating all the parts to where they are supposed to be first then re-assess the problem. Is the breach tang barrel assembly fully seated in the wood? The picture may be wrong but the snail section looks like it could be seated into the lock plate a little further. As before mentioned the bolster of the lock needs to be seated to the barrel. If the combination of a minor seating of the barrel into the stock as well as the lock plate the hammer is now in perfect alignment top to bottom as well as side to side. Grinding out the side clearance for the nipple with the dremil is a good way to go as long as once its clear you get full seating of the base of the nipple. To get the best results. I would get a piloted reamer to clear the side blocking the full nipple seating as well as guarantee a good seating surface for the bottom of the nipple. Really you are not that far from having it squared away.

Putting the barrel deeper in the wood is not going to solve the nipple problem,  the poorly tapped/designed breech.
If thinking of replacement there may not be a replacement breech that will fit the wood or alternatively the standing breech properly.
The rifle will likely work OK once the hammer strikes the nipple centered, but the nipple being at an angle will likely result in nipple battering.
IF the alloy was known it might be possible to weld the hole and then redrill and tap. But this would require a good welder and using a tig can be very problematical if any tungsten gets in the weld. A gas shielded wire welder might be best.
It might be best to preheat the part, weld it and then anneal with an antiscale, maybe even borax, on the threads. The borax will dissolve in water.

Dan
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"American Girls and American Guys
Will always stand up and salute  Will always recognize
When we see Old Glory Flying   There's a lot of men dead   So we can sleep in peace at night   When we lay down our head"
Toby Keith "Courtesy of the Red White and Blue"
Dpeck
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« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2010, 10:36:12 AM »

In addition to bending the hammer I used to use a cutter that you get for a Dremmel and also true up the inside of the hammer for a square hit.  They work whether in a variable speed Dremmel or an electric drill.  The notch is also good, but you get a more consistant ignition if the hit is squared.

DP
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2010, 11:07:36 AM »

It seems to me that once the lock is fully inlet so that the plate bolster rests squarely and firmly on the side flat of the barrel, most if not all of the lateral problem will be solved.
If I were doing the work, I'd drop the barrel and tang 1/16" into the channel, and move it aft about 1/32".  That will mean filing out the crescent for the snail in the plate.
As far as the nipple goes, its seat needs to be ground or milled to provide a flat for the nipple's base to seat against.  The combination of these things should align the hammer nose with the nipple, and little if any bending would be required.
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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