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Author Topic: Teflon Test  (Read 2689 times)
Roger Fisher
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« on: November 16, 2010, 04:20:57 PM »





Targets are elsewhere as I type this - I intend to measure the groups  center to center and will post such later. She shoots abt an inch or so above point of aim at 55 yds and I can live with that.   Grin

Measured the group (cast out the flyer)  Prewashed - 1 1/2 inches center to center,  Unwashed - 1 3/8" center to center.

Conclusion of this very unscientific test is to use either one and a little bit of moisture on patch opposite side of the teflon of course. Roll Eyes

Don't know if it proved anything at all; but a nice way to spend a couple hrs at the range on a beautiful fall day.
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rich pierce
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2010, 06:20:12 PM »

What's the bore diameter, Roger?  What kind of teflon material, source, etc?  How does this compare to other patching in same rifle?
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St. Louis, Missouri
Maven
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2010, 06:36:10 PM »

Roger, Am I correct in assuming you used no lube and didn't need to wipe the bore between shots? Huh
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Paul W. Brasky
Roger Fisher
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2010, 07:08:17 PM »

What's the bore diameter, Roger?  What kind of teflon material, source, etc?  How does this compare to other patching in same rifle?
Don't have a clue as to the diameter.  She's a Getz .45 that I started with a ..451 ball way back when she was new in 89 and then moved up to a .454 both with patching that varied from .015./.018.  Now I use patching again that is around the same thickness and some .020 with the teflon (for shooting target beyond 50 yds)It's sold via vendors in M Blasts...(Ol Mike Bell 'had' also sold it)

I shot several comparisons of changing only from that tight weave olde tyme floral pillow ticking (try to find that now) that mikes around .016 and teflon that mikes 'around' .018/.020 depending on your stopping the 'squeeze at the right time'
at 75 yds rest in ideal conditions.  The teflon shot a somewhat tighter group of 8 shots (as I recall) than did the floral and spit. So, I go to teflon from 50 yds on out. and the floral and spit out to 50.  Confusion does happen.. Roll Eyes
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Roger Fisher
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2010, 07:14:20 PM »

Roger, Am I correct in assuming you used no lube and didn't need to wipe the bore between shots? Huh
Answers are Yes and No!!    No lube used. I did have to wipe after each 2nd shot since the teflon builds a cake in the bore quickly.  It does shoot well, just check with 99 % of the bench shooters.... Wink

It was mentioned prior that just a touch of moisture  Tongue Tongue Tongue (Get my meaning here?) on opposite side from the teflon gives an easier loading proceedure..
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bgf
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2010, 08:56:07 PM »

Just from looking at it, doesn't seem like any statistically significant difference (ignoring the flyer).  How does a group with your normal lube and patch compare?  I guess if I had to choose, the unwashed looks like as good a choice as any.
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smylee grouch
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2010, 10:33:14 PM »

Roger: I watch some of the bench guys shoot the stuff and some wet the back side with a light mist of water from something like a window cleaner bottle. Not much, just a lite misting. Some of those guys sure get good groups.   Gary
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Roger Fisher
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2010, 09:38:20 AM »

Just from looking at it, doesn't seem like any statistically significant difference (ignoring the flyer).  How does a group with your normal lube and patch compare?  I guess if I had to choose, the unwashed looks like as good a choice as any.
You are correct, little difference.  This was expected.  My 'normal' patch and spit shoots nearly as good; but my rest shooting will be done with the teflon.
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Roger Fisher
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« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2010, 09:45:48 AM »

Roger: I watch some of the bench guys shoot the stuff and some wet the back side with a light mist of water from something like a window cleaner bottle. Not much, just a lite misting. Some of those guys sure get good groups.   Gary
Well a mister bottle would be just dandy; but one more thing shoved in my shooting gear would burst the box.  So, I'll stay primative and figure 'tongue' is good Grin Cool  But I'll stay away from the teflon side (when sober) Grin
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Daryl
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« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2010, 11:44:44 AM »

Interesting - Horizontal usually means more powder needed, while vertical means less. Of course, more groups are needed with each for statistical merrit. Minor light changes on the target itself can do the same.

Have you tried different bench techniques? - Are you letting the muzzle jump or holding on to it, with the back of your hand on the bag? Resting of bags, or hard object?  Feet flat, of course - it's important. Technique is very important to good bench or 'rest' grouping.

Was wanting to go out shooting this week - looks cold and windy out the window from my computer at -10C- maybe around 14F and windy with snow blowing. Guess winter's finally here.
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Roger Fisher
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« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2010, 06:59:09 PM »

Interesting - Horizontal usually means more powder needed, while vertical means less. Of course, more groups are needed with each for statistical merrit. Minor light changes on the target itself can do the same.

Have you tried different bench techniques? - Are you letting the muzzle jump or holding on to it, with the back of your hand on the bag? Resting of bags, or hard object?  Feet flat, of course - it's important. Technique is very important to good bench or 'rest' grouping.

Was wanting to go out shooting this week - looks cold and windy out the window from my computer at -10C- maybe around 14F and windy with snow blowing. Guess winter's finally here.
Through many 'sessions' over the yrs with this rifle I found the sweet spot being just behind the center pipe.  I doubt if my skinny arms are long enough to reach that spot when shooting her from a bag/rest. My l fist goes under the toe. I hope my feet were flat (on the ground I hope).  Must say that that black block used to be nice and sharp; but now with the cataracts growing it fuzzes out.  I can blink all I want and it still fuzzes out most of the time.  I blame that stringing on that.  Can't hold nice and tight at 6 0'clock any more.  Its more and more a guessing game.  Cry     That cold weather up there calls for at least a 2 dog (or gal) night Grin
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Daryl
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2010, 08:15:34 PM »

I'd expect you had a 'sweet' spot picked out.  My .40 shoots best and an inch higher rested on that 1st pipe above the entry pipe as well. It's the best spot for chunk - so far.  Now that I've got the .45 (GM barrel) working again I'm sort of champing at the bit to do some chunk or bench with it. The high winds and blowing snow kinda dampened my enthusiasm in that direction - for this week, at least.
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ken
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2010, 07:17:06 AM »

Question ?  Will the teflon patching eventuly couse the barrle to become to slick By then loosing that fine grouping
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Roger Fisher
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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2010, 09:45:14 AM »

Question ?  Will the teflon patching eventuly couse the barrle to become to slick By then loosing that fine grouping
I doubt it; but can't say for certain.   How's that for an evasive response Roll Eyes

Actually, a good cleaning of that bore after a shooting session should really rid that bore of any teflon and thats what I depend on and trust!

I do know good ol George Dech said that he would never use it due to its clogging up the grooves.   Course George was of the old school....   The bench shooters use it and seem to love it and if it screwed up the bore as in too slick and their groups went south they would no longer use it.   That tells me that it is or at least should be no problem.

Seems like we slick our bores by cleaning them Roll Eyes

We wonder if the ol Mad Monk is following this question.  Hoping he can add to this. 
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Daryl
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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2010, 10:24:19 AM »

The more strokes in cleaning, the more wear. The more you have to wipe the bore, the more wear.  The more shots fired, the more wear. 

I would think that anything that reduces friction, ie: teflon coated patching, would reduce wear, but if you have to wipe it often, then you are losing the benefit in wear reduction given by the teflon.
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Flinter
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« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2010, 06:40:03 AM »

Good shooting Roger. I have a few questions. Are the Teflon patches pre lubed, or are you spraying the Teflon onto a pre cut cotton patch? I tried some coated patches, and the patch was very stiff. When I put the ball on the patch to load the rifle, the ball would roll off the end of the barrel.

Mike
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jmwilson
bob in the woods
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« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2010, 07:31:51 AM »

My rifles shoot well with cotton/linen patching. I'm cheap...teflon patching is expensive. End of story Grin
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Roger Fisher
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« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2010, 10:18:31 AM »

Good shooting Roger. I have a few questions. Are the Teflon patches pre lubed, or are you spraying the Teflon onto a pre cut cotton patch? I tried some coated patches, and the patch was very stiff. When I put the ball on the patch to load the rifle, the ball would roll off the end of the barrel.

Mike
I get it by the yard, some has more than enough teflon to the point that it is fairly well caked and it does take some agility to work the ball into the bore a bit and follow quickly with the short starter...I use it for 50 yds on out andf ound it does in fact shoot tighter groups than does my spit patch.So, the spit patch and ol tyme floral pillow ticking is for 25 yds etc.
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Daryl
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« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2010, 11:12:37 AM »

Good shooting Roger. I have a few questions. Are the Teflon patches pre lubed, or are you spraying the Teflon onto a pre cut cotton patch? I tried some coated patches, and the patch was very stiff. When I put the ball on the patch to load the rifle, the ball would roll off the end of the barrel.

Mike
I get it by the yard, some has more than enough teflon to the point that it is fairly well caked and it does take some agility to work the ball into the bore a bit and follow quickly with the short starter...I use it for 50 yds on out andf ound it does in fact shoot tighter groups than does my spit patch.So, the spit patch and ol tyme floral pillow ticking is for 25 yds etc.


Does this mean that "SOME" isn't that well caked with teflon?- does that mean it isn't consistant? Having to wipe the bore between shots would get me down, especially in the winter time.

It's bad enough handling a wet patch when loading, let alone having to wipe the bore with one or more as well. The fingers can get so cold they ache, especially when they thaw out.

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Roger Fisher
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« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2010, 01:20:30 PM »

Good shooting Roger. I have a few questions. Are the Teflon patches pre lubed, or are you spraying the Teflon onto a pre cut cotton patch? I tried some coated patches, and the patch was very stiff. When I put the ball on the patch to load the rifle, the ball would roll off the end of the barrel.

Mike
I get it by the yard, some has more than enough teflon to the point that it is fairly well caked and it does take some agility to work the ball into the bore a bit and follow quickly with the short starter...I use it for 50 yds on out andf ound it does in fact shoot tighter groups than does my spit patch.So, the spit patch and ol tyme floral pillow ticking is for 25 yds etc.


Does this mean that "SOME" isn't that well caked with teflon?- does that mean it isn't consistant? Having to wipe the bore between shots would get me down, especially in the winter time.

It's bad enough handling a wet patch when loading, let alone having to wipe the bore with one or more as well. The fingers can get so cold they ache, especially when they thaw out.


Well now, Ol Daryl isn't frozen quite yet and he does pay attention... Grin

The teflon I have had over the years some grey some green, has been usually quite evenly spritzed on the fabric although some folks (that peddle it) apply it heavier or thinner that others. I also have had some that was v unevenly applied.

Well, when it's a bit under freezing I don't care to have the spit patch freeze in the bore (been there) and screw up a w walk, since I can do that on my own... so then it's bear oil/grease in a ball board..... Cheesy
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Daryl
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« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2010, 06:37:41 PM »

HA! - I see - how many shots do you go through on a Trail or Wood's walk? Our Sundays on the 'trail' run form 25 shos for some to over 80 for others, depending on when that person arrives. Taylor and I usually go through around 50 to 80 - he's going to try an oil this winter to see if that's easier on his poor circulation'd fingers.  I'll stick with the WWWfluid and oil - like the way it shoots so cleanly (about the same as spit, but doesn''t freeze - ever)

Sound have a good day Sunday. Looks like it might only be about -5 to -7,  that would be around 15 to 20F, I guess.
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Harnic
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« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2010, 08:47:57 PM »


Sound have a good day Sunday. Looks like it might only be about -5 to -7,  that would be around 15 to 20F, I guess.

Down right balmy up there Daryl!  About the same temp & snow amounts as down south here!  Weird fall so far for sure!  I'm flying down to Vancouver Sunday for a family visit & to experience rain again!  Grin
 Back in 10 days.  Have fun!
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Flinter
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« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2010, 10:30:31 AM »

Good shooting Roger. I have a few questions. Are the Teflon patches pre lubed, or are you spraying the Teflon onto a pre cut cotton patch? I tried some coated patches, and the patch was very stiff. When I put the ball on the patch to load the rifle, the ball would roll off the end of the barrel.

Mike
I get it by the yard, some has more than enough teflon to the point that it is fairly well caked and it does take some agility to work the ball into the bore a bit and follow quickly with the short starter...I use it for 50 yds on out andf ound it does in fact shoot tighter groups than does my spit patch.So, the spit patch and ol tyme floral pillow ticking is for 25 yds etc.

Roger

I wonder how some of the spray on Teflon would work?
I have tried cutting my own patches, and this is quite time consuming.
If I do this much, I plan on making some kind of patch cutter.

Mike
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jmwilson
Roger Fisher
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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2010, 07:31:16 PM »

Good shooting Roger. I have a few questions. Are the Teflon patches pre lubed, or are you spraying the Teflon onto a pre cut cotton patch? I tried some coated patches, and the patch was very stiff. When I put the ball on the patch to load the rifle, the ball would roll off the end of the barrel.

Mike
I get it by the yard, some has more than enough teflon to the point that it is fairly well caked and it does take some agility to work the ball into the bore a bit and follow quickly with the short starter...I use it for 50 yds on out andf ound it does in fact shoot tighter groups than does my spit patch.So, the spit patch and ol tyme floral pillow ticking is for 25 yds etc.

Roger

I wonder how some of the spray on Teflon would work?
I have tried cutting my own patches, and this is quite time consuming.
If I do this much, I plan on making some kind of patch cutter.

Mike
To your question,,, the teflon patching is sold and purchased by the yard and I have tried to punch the little round patching jiggers and that got old quick.  buy it in bulk, cut it in strips start the ball in to the muzzle cut the patch at the muzzle.
Works for me. And much less pain in the a   ! Smiley
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Daryl
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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2010, 01:00:06 PM »

I agree with Roger- if I was to buy this type of patching - highly unlikely as it is, it would be for the absolute most accurate shooting I could possibly do with that particular barrel.  Teflon patching requires wiping the bore - I must have an allergy to doing that  because I'm sure I could not wipe between shots and survive.   Anyway- back to why a strip, rather than precuts.

With a strip, the ball is always perfectly centred in the patch, as long as it is always perfectly introduced into the muzzle, pefectly straight, in line with the bore's axis. A little stud on the short starter or a muzzle-fitting guide starter is necessary for this to happen.  Pre-cuts are plenty accurate enough for trail walks, and hunting, but if loading for absolute accuracy, one must go the extra mile & cut on the muzzle.

 Cloth weave orientation, mould lines in the ball, straight-line seating prior to cutting off the excess patch & method of seating the ball on the powder - all exactly the same - every single time - consistancy, though art a jewel.

Thus - if I was to buy the teflon patching it would be by the yard and I'd use it as a strip, cutting at the muzzle. imho
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