Author Topic: John Rupp I....?  (Read 41485 times)


Offline Tom Currie

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2010, 05:45:29 PM »
Jim, Thanks for posting those pics. Three very nice rifles.

hoochiejohn

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2010, 07:24:22 PM »
To continue the genealogical thread ??? ;D  Hans Theobold Fahringer was the brother-in-law of Herman Rupp...married to Herman's sister Maria Clara Rupp.  Theobold died at age 31, which may explain some of the child custody issues ???
Also, one of Theobold and Clara's daughters (Christine Ferringer) married John (Jacob) Shreckengost of Putneyville, PA...a blacksmith and farmer, possibly some gunsmithing connections...a cousin of the gunsmith William G. Shreckengost, and Lincoln Grant Shreckengost.
Thanks for the great investigation and compliation of information ;D
                                    Hoochiejohn ( S'gost and Rupp descendant )

Bob Smalser

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2010, 07:54:39 PM »
The Stadtwappen of Nassau an der Lahn, Fahringer's birthplace in the Palatinate.



Thanks for another Schrecengast-Schreckengost (scarecrow?) link.  I established a temporary Rupp Family Tree to keep track, and have already been contacted by two other family researchers, at least one of whom has a Schreckengost rifle.

When was Christine Ferringer born?  I only show Maria Clara b1766, Mary E b1768 and Barbara b1770 as daughters.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 08:00:21 PM by Bob Smalser »

mkeen

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2010, 08:48:11 PM »
“The father of John Moll (1st), whose name was William, was also a gunsmith, and plied his trade as early as 1747.  His great grandson William, has an heirloom descended from him, a device for cutting threads on screws, neatly made of iron, and bearing in plainly legible characters the inscription ‘April 10, 1747 – W.M.’  “ (Mathews and Hungerford p123-4)

[/quote]


This reference states William Moll's device was for cutting threads on screws and was made of iron. It says nothing about a tool required for rifling a gun barrel. Any comments?

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2010, 09:05:33 PM »
The text in the 19th century "History" states it was a screw cutter; I have seen 20th century texts and articles variously refer to it as a screw cutter and a rifling worm or rifling bed, so the story has been warped a bit.  I don't think it really much matters which it is purported to be; if you buy into the story, then it's the date and initials which are of import rather than the item itself.  Either tool would have been valued to a gunsmith. 
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Bob Smalser

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2010, 09:20:53 PM »
“The father of John Moll (1st), whose name was William, was also a gunsmith, and plied his trade as early as 1747.  His great grandson William, has an heirloom descended from him, a device for cutting threads on screws, neatly made of iron, and bearing in plainly legible characters the inscription ‘April 10, 1747 – W.M.’  “ (Mathews and Hungerford p123-4)

I've yet to see a rifle with a screw sufficiently large to hand-stamp or engrave "10 Apr 1747 WM" on its die.  Or its die handle for that matter.

But regardless of whether it was a rifling machine, a bore reamer with an auger handle, or something else sufficiently large and valuable to merit an inscription, the question is did a William Moll (1712-1780) exist, and was he a gunsmith?  

Either by correspondence or a live interview with Wm Henry Moll (1829-1889) some time before that book was published in 1884 established that he did and he was.  I can't imagine a motive for either interviewer or interviewee to fabricate all that 130 years after the fact.  William Henry was already descended from a line of six gunsmiths, and he didn't have to add another for emphasis.  Further, the narrative and misdescription reads like the layman author actually saw the heirloom.  William Henry the 4th-generation gunsmith would have described it more precisely.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 11:52:15 PM by Bob Smalser »

hoochiejohn

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2010, 09:50:51 PM »
Bob
      Whoops :-[  Christine Ferringer  ( 1800-1893 ), GRANDDAUGHTER of Maria Clara Rupp and Johannes Theobald Fahringer, and , DAUGHTER of George A. Ferringer ( 1771-1830 ) and Anna Christine ( 1770-1829 ).  I think this is the correct info now ???
      Sorry for the confusion :-[ :-[
                                                         Denny

Offline JTR

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2010, 01:34:49 AM »
Quote

I've yet to see a rifle with a screw sufficiently large to hand-stamp or engrave "10 Apr 1747 WM" on its die.  Or its die handle for that matter.

I wouldn't throw out the screw thread cutting machine just because it doesn't fit your story.

A very accurate screw thread cutting lathe was invented in 1739. It used various gears and a hand crank to operate the machine, the gears being used in various sizes to set the number of threads cut.
A machine like that would certainly be large enough to engrave with initials and date, and would have been a machine that any gunsmith or otherwise would have been proud of.  

John
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 01:35:49 AM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2010, 04:04:27 AM »
I have no idea if William Moll existed.  The only point I would make is this:  the first mention of him is indeed 130 years after the fact.  I don't think his existence was fabricated for some dark ulterior motive, but his existence - after a century of nothing but the oral passage of history - may have been the result of confusion or mistake.  I don't put much stock in those 19th century history texts because I spent a lot of time and a lot of money in Easton and in Philadelphia with the period documents themselves, and there is a LOT of contradiction.  Many of those authors blatantly copied each others' work with no verification whatsoever.  When in doubt, I will choose to trust the first-hand documents of the period.  That's a personal choice.  In the case of this mysterious William Moll, I found no documents at all.  Neither have any Moll researchers, to my knowledge.  That doesn't mean he did not exist, but it does raise the question.  Given that there are tantalizing clues to various origins for Johannes, and given that currently no paperwork regarding this William has been found, I feel comfortable in expressing doubt.  As my dear and very wise friend Earl Lanning has tried to beat into anyone's head who will listen, there is nothing wrong with saying, "I don't know."  In reviewing the currently surviving paperwork dating to the 18th century for NH County, there are many, many individuals mentioned in assorted petitions, church records, court records etc. who never made it into the tax lists, and those living there at the time were not grunting cavemen; there is a LOT of paperwork involving seemingly insignificant things, and in my experience, if someone was there, chances are one can find some record or mention, somewhere.  The origins of Johannes Moll and his alleged father William remain in doubt.  We can speculate to our heart's content and each put forth our personal hypothetical view, but ultimately, until a first-hand document materializes, we just don't know.   
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Offline DaveM

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2010, 04:46:05 AM »
Interesting thread..I have done quite a bit of Berks County research, and I believe that generally you will find that many early families have origins in, or lived at least at some point, in early Berks County.

Johannes Moll, "Gunsmith", is listed in a document as owning a 50-acre property in Rockland Township, Berks County in 1763, not real close to Lehigh County.  I suspect his father lived somewhere close by.  This document even includes a description of the buildings listing a smith's shop.  If anyone wants further details let me know.  The occupation of the other part was a "Miller", possibly a working associate.

Also there was a Henry Moll, blacksmith, in Windsor Twp Berks County, in 1768-1770.

Dave

Bob Smalser

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2010, 04:56:54 AM »

A very accurate screw thread cutting lathe was invented in 1739...

Noted.  But in 1747 in a dirt or puncheon-floor log cabin on the far reaches of the frontier?  Given Britain's strict merchantile policies, I'm not sure there'd be one even  in Philadelphia a decade after its invention in England.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hindley
http://www.academicamerican.com/colonial/topics/britishempire.htm#mercantilism

But it raises an excellent point.  When did lock-making begin in Philadelphia?  We know Ebenezer Cowel was contracted to begin the manufacture of gunlocks in 1776, and the archives talk to buying locks from local makers...but how about 30 years before that in the 1740's?  Didn't those sophisticated goods mostly come from Birmingham and London then?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 04:58:52 AM by Bob Smalser »

Bob Smalser

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2010, 05:29:10 AM »

I have no idea if William Moll existed.....

... In the case of this mysterious William Moll,... currently no paperwork regarding this William has been found...until a first-hand document materializes, we just don't know.   

Me neither.  But the existing evidence points to his GGGrandson William Henry Moll thinking he existed, and I'm reluctant to discount that easily.

While those old Germans and Swiss were thorough about writing things down, we also lost a lot of those records to fire.  Like almost the entire 1890 Census either destroyed ot damaged by a 1921 fire.  Thatched roofs and stick chimneys were banned in many colonial locales early on, but balloon framing beginning in the 1830's made up for that with a vengeance.


Offline Karl Kunkel

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2010, 06:06:21 AM »
Bob,

The picture of the ballon frame wall saves as "brannigan252".  Frank Brannigan?
Kunk

Bob Smalser

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2010, 06:15:20 AM »

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2010, 04:47:13 PM »
Hey Dave - you can't throw that one out there with no addt'l information!!  :o :o

Bruce Moyer has done quite a bit of talking with the Angstadt researchers as he too has spent much time digging around after John Moll, and he seems to have come across a few references to a Johannes Moll in Rockland twp. over near or next to Angstadt land.  He also had a copy of an early property map.  What do you have that specifically mentions this Johannes as a gunsmith?  One of the popular theories of origin has always been up through Berks Co.

Edit:  possibly it's conceivable that their is some truth on both sides and it has simply been warped via time - possibly, the Johannes Moll of Allentown *was* the son of a gunmsith, but instead of his father's name being William, it also was Johannes/John and father/son origins were over in Berks like some have suggested.  After all, Johannes/John of Allentown named his gunsmith son John, and he named his gunsmith son John...  something of a family tradition?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 04:55:45 PM by Eric Kettenburg »
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Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2010, 06:52:03 PM »
Bob,   I don't know if this is relative to the discussion, but Benjamin Schrecengost
was my gggg grandfather.  His father in law Christopher Oury was a distiller in Kittanning area and he provided the land upon which Christ Rupp Lutheran Church was built.  Frantz Rupp was a founding member of the  church.  Benjamin and his family were founding members of the
church.  I'm pasting some church info below that refers to Christopher Uhrig which was the original german spelling before it was changed to Oury.  Christ Rupp Lutheran Church is the oldest church in rural Armstrong County.

"In 1786, Frantz Rupp and his brother-in-law Christopher Uhrig, took up a large tract of land in Kittanning Township for the purpose of building a church. It was in this field that the Rupp settlement gathered for worship. On a portion of this land, in 1786, a cemetery was laid out. It was in this cemetery portion that a log cabin building known as the "German Meeting House" was built in 1796. This was undoubtedly the first Lutheran Church built within the confines of Armstrong County"

Benjamin SGost's grandfather Johann Jost Shreckengast served under Capt
John Moll in the Northumberland Militia according to Historian Gary Schreckengost.
Conrad Schrecengost was Benjamin's father and brother to Heinrich Schrecengost
who was the grandfather of gunmaker William G.    The Schrecengosts were also
intermarried with the Truby and Zartman gunsmiths.  Benjamin's mother was a Zartman and Michael Truby married one of the Schrecengost girls.  Michael was son of Jacob Truby, both were gunsmiths.
  More church info here
CHRIST EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN CHURCH
KITTANNING TOWNSHIP

ARMSTRONG COUNTY


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About the year 1760, the widow of Ulrich Rupp with her two children, Franz and Christina, emigrated from Germany to America.
After a residence of twelve years in Leigh County, Franz and Christina (now wife of Christopher Uhrig) were found among the pioneers of Westmoreland near Greensburgh.

In 1774 the name of "Frantz Raupp" and "Stofel Uhrig" are found attacted to the historic Fort Allen petition, asking for more adequate protection against the Indians.

Two years later Franz enlisted in the American army, serving in the Fort Pitt garrison until the close of the war. In company with Christopher Uhrig he took up a large tract of land in Kittanning Township in the year 1786.

On a portion of this land patended by Christopher Uhrig, July 31, 1786, a cemetery was laid out; and in this cemetery a log building, know as the "German Meeting House", was built in 1796.

This was undoubtedly the first Lutheran Church built within the confinds of Armstrong County.

The first service in this log church was conducted by Rev. John M. Steck, who deeply interested in this undertaking of his two former parishioners.

From 1796 to 1813, this pastor made annual visits to the Rupp settlement and ministered to the people in the word and sacraments.

The deed for this land was formally executed, June 15, 1814, when Christopher Oury and his wife, for a consideration of $100, conveyed a plot of five and a quarter acers to George Williams and Henry Schrecongost (Henry is Heinrich, grandfather of gunsmith William G. Shreckengost) , acting trustees for the German Meeting House.

Franz Rupp died, December 28, 1817, and his body was laid to rest in the cemetery of the church that has born his name to the present day.

Other men prominent in the early history of the church were:


Conrad Schrecongost
Peter Heilman

Daniel Heilman

Martin Blose

Adam Ohlinger

Daniel Bautsch

David Fitzgerald

George Wiiliams

It was organized as a union church, in which Reformed and Lutheran had an equal share; but te Lutheran element was much stronger, and the Reformed families were absorbed at an early date.

In 1813 they were visited by Rev. John Gottfried Lamprecht, who served as their pastor fo two years. A second and better log church was built during his ministry.

In 1817 the congregation joined with three others in petitioning Ministerium of Pennsylvania for a pastor, and Rev. John Adam Mohler served them from 1817 to 1823.

Rev. David Earhart says of him:

" Though his preaching was fair and his musical talent such that he frequently taugh singing school, it was commonly reported that, because of improper conduct, h lost the confidence of the people and then his charge also.

" He afterwards preached for the Methodists in the state of Indiana."

Rev. Karl M. Zeilfels, a man of similar character, preached for them during the years 1824 and 1824.

It was said that he collected a considerable sum for the church, put the money in his own pocket and left the community. Very little is know of his later life, except that he became a pastor of some independent church in Ohio.

The next pastor was Rev. Gabriel Adam Reichart , a thorough German, a true Lutheran and a man of God.

His private diary indicates that he became a pastor of congregation, October 14, 1825.

For some time previous to this, he was pastor of neighboring churches, and able to preach occasionally at Rupp's.

From October 14, 1825, to December 25, 1837, he served them rergularly ever four weeks, preaching in German, except for a little Englsh sermon during the last four years of his pastorate.

In his private diary he always refers to this church as "Williams", probably because he sometimes preached at the home of George Williams Sr.

In 1830 Konrad Schrecongost and George Wild were the elders, and George Forster and John Krevener the deacons.

From 1829 to 1934, he administered the sacraments of the altar to the following persons in this church:

« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 07:04:12 PM by suzkat »
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Offline DaveM

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2010, 08:40:15 PM »
Erik, did not mean to keep you hanging, but this is definitely the man, and what I stated is fact.  I was typing a reply and got a call my dad had to go to the emergency room so I've been at the hospital all day until now.  I am only typing this to get my mind off of that, but I think my dad will be ok.  Real priorities in life come rushing back fast.

This document is dated September and October 1763, and is a mortgage and land transfer legal document.  A man named Nicholas Clemens, Moll's neighbor, agreed to hold a mortgage for Moll, payable in full by 1765.  It is unclear what property was being mortgaged, perhaps it was for a purchase by Moll somewhere north.  But as a term of this agreeement, Johannes Moll transferred his 50-acre property with improvements and buildings including a smiths shop, to Clemens.  Therefore Moll was obviously going to move.  By the way his neighbor, Clemens, had the occupation of miller so they probably worked together.  From what I gather, Moll was moving from this location accordingly in the fall of 1763.  Not sure when he was first recorded working further north. 

Johannes Moll is definitely listed in the document as a "gunsmith", not blacksmith or anything else, or I would not stated it this way.  The document also lists that the land transfer included a piece occupied by another man but owned by Moll.  Probably another working associate.  I'll try to post the full transcript soon depending on how my day goes with my dad.  It is clear that he had been well established in Rockland Twp for some time


Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2010, 09:08:19 PM »
GREAT!  It has to be more than just a coincidence that this occurs in 1763 and he turns up in Allentown in 1764.  A big question would be is this the same John Moll that married Lydia Rinker in 1772 or is this a father of that John Moll?  If it's the same guy, either he married late or Rinker may have been a 2nd wife.  Also, if he was established as a gunsmith in Berks Co. in 1763, then he had to have been born previous to the 1746 date that is often used (undocumented).  It also means it might be more productive to look for a William Moll in Berks Co. rather than NH.

Hope things work out ok for your father, Dave!!!
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Offline DaveM

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2010, 09:29:44 PM »
What gets a little more tricky is that Rockland Township was established in 1757, but prior to that it was part of Oley Township.  I have some great research materials on the Oley Valley, as my ancestors settled there in 1749, and other branches of my family even earlier in Oley Township, though my materials are packed away currently and inaccessible.

Johannes Moll was on the list of first taxable when Rockland Township was created in 1757, therefore I suspect we will learn more from very early Oley Township Berks County records.  This tax date would also make him born prior to perhaps 1730.

Offline Eric Laird

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2010, 01:46:50 AM »
In the instance of William Moll, is there any reason why the "device for cutting threads on screws, neatly made of iron, and bearing in plainly legible characters the inscription ‘April 10, 1747 – W.M." couldn't simply be a screw plate? Just speculation of course, but a necessary tool for a gunsmith and something a lot easier to hand down through the generations that a rifling bench (and a lot easier to lose in those later generations)! Just a thought.
Eric
Eric Laird

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2010, 01:54:35 AM »
I suspect you are correct.  I still would ask the question:  why date - with a day, no less - a screw plate or any other such tool?  I've seen a LOT of 18th century screwplates, many with stamped initials etc., but never with such a detailed marking.  It's like signing or dating a file - ???  Of course, that doesn't mean it couldn't have been the real deal, it just (in my opinion) smacks of someone in the 19th century having an old screw plate, wanting a nice story and engraving it.  Yes, I am cynical.  Would love to see it turn up in the family and get a look at it.  
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 01:55:25 AM by Eric Kettenburg »
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Bob Smalser

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2010, 05:08:27 AM »

… Johannes Moll transferred his 50-acre property with improvements and buildings including a smiths shop, to Clemens.  Therefore Moll was obviously going to move…. in the fall of 1763…

…Johannes Moll is definitely listed in the document as a "gunsmith", not blacksmith or anything else…

That dovetails perfectly with the Brent Wade Moll narrative that Johannes Moll migrated from Berks County in time to appear on the Allentown tax rolls as a gunsmith in 1764.  

That’s as opposed to Dennis Kasten’s narrative that the 1764 Moll was a married person, not single gunmaker Johannes Moll, who didn’t appear in Allentown until 1772.  

The only problem with the land deal is that Moll’s assumed age of between 17 and 23 is a bit young to be making 160-pound transactions…especially with his father still alive.   Brent Wade Moll reports that the father William Moll didn’t die until 1780 and died intestate in Northampton County, which means he died without a will and had assets distributed under the oversight of the Northampton courthouse.  BW Moll says there is a record of inventory in the archives.  It will be interesting to find it.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa5/mollpa/
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 05:15:07 AM by Bob Smalser »

Bob Smalser

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2010, 06:47:52 AM »

… frankly, given extant first-hand accounts of the time, it is likely there was no gun work of any import occurring in the Allentown area [outside of the Moravian enclave, which is an entirely different matter] prior to the tail end of the 1760s or early 1770s…

Also dovetailing perfectly into a Johannes Moll gunsmith’s possible 1764 move to Allentown is this graphic account of at least 23 Whitehall citizens murdered and scalped on Oct 8, 1763 in a 10-mile raid centered around Egypt….most of them women and children.

“Brief account of murders by the Indians, and the cause thereof, in Northampton County, Penn'a., October 8th, 1763”
http://search.ancestry.com/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=14177&iid=dvm_LocHist001076-00007-1&sid=&gskw=&cr=1

Page 30 is a description of how poorly armed the citizenry was and an urgent request for 50 guns, 100lbs of powder, and 400lbs of lead.  Followed by a letter from Governor Hamilton the Assembly that on 22 Oct 1763 passed a bill appropriating 24,000 pounds for raising a defense force of 800 men.

The effects of these terror incidents lasted a generation and more.  Whitehall and Allentown (and the entire Lehigh Valley and beyond) were up to their eyeballs trying to arm themselves by 1764.  Anybody who could sell or make guns…probably of the plain rifle or trade-musket flavor… was likely very busy.  And well-funded.

Also note that Abraham Rincker is the Lieutenant of the local Whitehall defense company.  Abraham was the older brother of Johannes Moll’s bride-to-be, and the mother of John Moll II.  More “who-begat-who” stuff that’s important.  How do you spose she met Johannes, except through a professional relationship with her brother?

Further, Abraham and his wife Gertrude were sponsors at the baptism of John Moll III in 1796, on behalf of parents John Moll II and Elizabeth Newhard.   Abraham was later a Captain in the Revolution.


« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 04:32:54 PM by Bob Smalser »

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: John Rupp I....?
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2010, 05:14:57 PM »
I'm pleased to see your work on the Rupp, Schrecengost, Moll relationships.
I apologize if I already made note of it but the Truby and Zartman families
of gunsmiths were also tied in by marriage.  Most interestingly, I was looking at
the records of the Salem Reformed Church which was formed by the Shrecengosts in Armstrong County and I see that there was a Rev. Pennepacker
leading the church during that era.  Here is the quote from the church records of
the Salem Reformed Church/Hills Church.  "Sept. 1867 – J.J. Pennepacker was ordained to the gospel ministry and installed as Pastor of the Kittanning charge at Belknap Church on Sept. 14, 1867, by a committee of Clarion Classis. Rev. J.G. Shoemaker and Rev. W.G. Engle appeared as members of the committee. Rev. J.G. Shoemaker preached from I Tim. 14:13-16."

I'm wondering if this is yet another connection to an additional gunsmithing family. 
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.