Vinegar and Iron

[Clark Badgett]

Ask them for a jarful of the turnings from their drum and rotor turning lathe

If they are under 10" I can do this at home. Wonder how much scrap rotors go for at the junkyard.

[T*O*F]

If they are under 10" I can do this at home. Wonder how much scrap rotors go for at the junkyard.

Why go thru the trouble of traveling to and from a junkyard, buying a scrap rotor, turning it yourself and ending up with something that is free for the asking at any shop?

[billd]

I don't know if it makes a difference, but most brake parts are made from ductile iron or pearlitic iron which is different from common grey iron.  I used to know the difference, something about free ferrite in the metal. We machine lots of both and the chips are worth almost nothing. I don't think the cost of the scrap even pays for getting it hauled away. If anyone walked into my shop and ask for a couple pounds of scrap turnings, I'd give them for free.  If anyone is using turnings from a machine shop, wash them first. They will have coolant on them from the machining process. Ours is water soluable.

Bill

[Long John]

Nick,

You should use ONLY the clear solution.  That is a solution of ferrous and ferric acetate.  The precipitate at teh bottom of the jar might be iron acetate or iron oxide.  IWhat ever is not in solution it will make your stock finish look muddy and the wood will not have the clarity and depth you want in the finished appearance.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Ionian]

  Thank you John.

[FL-Flintlock]

I don't know if it makes a difference, but most brake parts are made from ductile iron or pearlitic iron which is different from common grey iron.  I used to know the difference, something about free ferrite in the metal. We machine lots of both and the chips are worth almost nothing. I don't think the cost of the scrap even pays for getting it hauled away. If anyone walked into my shop and ask for a couple pounds of scrap turnings, I'd give them for free.  If anyone is using turnings from a machine shop, wash them first. They will have coolant on them from the machining process. Ours is water soluable.

Bill

I've been following this thread closely and from the start I was wondering if the alloy makes a difference or not.  The barbed wire and hard-cut nails often referenced have a lower Fe content than say common round nails - the harder the steel, the less actual Fe that's in it.  Ductile or grey cast iron has higher Fe content than any of the steel items.

Also in relation to, Bill's question above, most brake parts are now made in China and seeing the results of their performance in brake systems - there is no alloy consistency to them at all.  Root of the question is, what affect, if any, do the particular alloying elements have on the resultant mixture and or color?

Thanks,
Mark

[bob in the woods]

I use this for my rifles all the time, and have had the best performance with old fence wire from my property [ ie "really old" ]  or filings from pure iron I use for making triggers etc. I was able to purchase some from Cabin Creek. I'm hoping to try and forge a barrel from it this winter.

[Ohioan]

Well,  I just tried some of my vinegar stain.  It turned the wood grey.  So I need more vinegar.  Now, if I make another batch, I know to start out with less iron!  And since I measured my ingredients, I have an idea of what not to do next time. 

[Long John]

Zach,

You can also just put some vinegar on the wood and it should turn the gray to reddish brown.  Or you can just add some more vinegar to the stain you got and it should redden-up.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Trkdriver99]

I made a batch using some old square nails that I had and 5% white vinegar. It sat about a week or so. Turned the wood gray, wiped with peroxide came out really pretty, not quite to my taste dark enough but I think a couple of more coats and it will. I really like this thread. I saw some other kinds of vinegar that was higher % of acid (balsamic), would that help work better or quicker? I might try that.

Ronnie

[Z. Buck]

Ronnie, balsamic vinegar is just white wine vinegar that has been aged in casks and has picked up sugars and chems from the wood, some cheaper ones (not technically balsamic) are white wine vinegar that has caramel added to it, neither would be appropriate for making stain

[Ohioan]

John,
Thanks for the advice.  I wiped some straight 5% apple vinegar on a section of grey, and it is still grey. Then I diluted my solution 4:1.  It's still grey.  I must have waaaaaaay to much iron.

[Karl Kunkel]

Okay, I'm taking the plunge.  I started a batch this afternoon.  Quart of 5 % Apple Cider Vinegar, and about 12 inches of old fence wire, cut into one inch pieces.

Too much iron, or not enough?  About how long does this need to brew until it becomes a viable stain?  I'm just going to play with some scrap maple.  I don't have a project right now.

[Paddlefoot]

Take your time and play with it in a month or two. It won't look like anything is going on but it is. You'll know if too much or too little when you first start applying it. I would advise to add all the wire it will eat then adjust with more vinegar after you see what it does on scrap.

[Long John]

Zach,

The gray color of your wood is due to ferrous oxide.  Sometimes you can get the ferrous oxide to convert to ferric oxide, it was worth a try.

I am not sure you have a case of too much iron as not enough time.  The acid oxidation of iron is a step wise process.  The acid combines with an iron molecule converting it to a ferrous (+2) ion.  Then more acid attacks the ferrous ion and converts it to a ferric (+3) ion.  What I would do in your situation is to take a cup of your current stain solution that is turning the wood gray and add to it 2 cups of cider vinegar.  Put the mix in a jar, screw on the lid, label the jar and put it on a shelf somewhere.  Try it again in a couple of weeks.  You should now get a reddish brown color.

My crock of stain has been sitting on the shelf for almost 20 years.  Each time I complete a rifle and it is ready to stain I take the lid off the crock and pour in some fresh vinegar, mix it up, let it sit for a few days and then pour the clear stain solution I am going to use off the top of the liquid into a plastic cup.  Vinegar/iron stain is NOT a Polaroid product.  It takes time!  The nitric acid/iron stain is quick.  Each stain technique has its advantages and disadvantages.  I suspect (don't know for sure) that the old timers knew that they were going to stain a rifle long before they started making the parts.  I suspect (don't know) that they had a crock of stock stain sitting up on a shelf somewhere.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Ohioan]

You know, i noticed a difference in the color of the stain this morning. 

There was a sludge on the bottom of the jar, and the rest was more of a dark vinegar color.

[Trkdriver99]

Mine turned grey and I used a wipe with peroxide to clear it up.  I have a question about the container. If I used a brass/copper(not tinned) container would it have any change on the mix and color?

Ronnie

[Randy Hedden]

Mine turned grey and I used a wipe with peroxide to clear it up.  I have a question about the container. If I used a brass/copper(not tinned) container would it have any change on the mix and color?

Ronnie

If you put copper into nitric acid you get a green color dye. I would imagine that if you put copper into vinegar you would also get a green color dye. Therefore, if you put vinegar in to a copper container I would imagine that you will produce a green dye.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com

[Mad Monk]

Randy,

No question there.  Expose copper to vinegar and you get cupric acetate.  Long used to dye horns, wool, leather and other protein-based goods.

[Trkdriver99]

Thanks for the info.

Ronnie

[Ohioan]

I made some with steel wool and the results are grey.  I've diluted it a lot, and still gray.  I even tried wiping with peroxide.

I bought some more cider vinegar and found some old barbed wire fence.  I a piece aobut 3 inches long in the 32 oz bottle of vinegar.  It's sat for two weeks.  It turned the wood a light brown.  There is a lot of sludge at the bottom of the bottle.

[LynnC]

I started a new batch when this thread got going.  Glass coffee jar about 1/2 full of plain white vinegar and one large square nail.  Now it's coffee color liquid.  Just stained an old beech kit stock and it came out a good dark walnut color.  Put on three coats.  Went on near clear and darkened as it dried.  Did have a slight even gray cast to it but looked great when oil finished.

Great results!  If I had been shooting for a redder brown color I should have used the stain about a week ago...........................Lynn

[Karl Kunkel]

I started a batch of apple vinegar with some fence wire Oct 26th.  It's now taking a gray/green hue, with some sediment in the bottom.  Still eating the wire.

[Paddlefoot]

It does appear that getting enough Iron in the stain is not the problem. I started several batches about 2 years ago when the saved posts went up on the old ALR forum. Been busy with stuff and got my building projects set aside. Tested those batches and found it still made a dark blue-grey stain. A couple weeks ago I  put some of the old stain into a clean jar and added fresh white vineger to it 2parts vinegar to 1 part stain.  Even though I was careful pouring the iron rich solution I ended up with some sediment in the bottom of that jar. Not sure if I just wasn't careful enough or maybe it was a reaction to the fresh vinegar...still staining Blue-grey after two weeks. Took some of the 2nd solution and a new jar and added vinegar roughly 1 to 1.  It's only been sitting a couple days but when I wipe it on it goes on a nice nut brown but darkens to the blue-grey when dry....I do feel like I'm getting closer though. I will probably hit it with a shot of peroxide just to see what happens.

[Ohioan]

I wonder...  What brand opf vinegar u all are using.

I'm using Kroger.