Author Topic: Aging and Why?  (Read 18318 times)

Leatherbelly

  • Guest
Aging and Why?
« on: February 08, 2011, 10:04:52 PM »
 I don't understand it. And that is; the artificial aging of accoutrements and rifles. Maybe I'm missing something here? I acquired a F&I horn from Randy Heddon three or four years ago and it has aged naturally and looks very nice. I asked him to leave it "white". I love you guys work on horns and such but can't fathom giving them a 200+ year patina.
  I wanted to scream at Carl to leave it white, but c'est la vie! Who am I? I really enjoyed Carl's tutorial, but don't understand the "aging" part.

Leatherbelly

  • Guest
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2011, 10:22:49 PM »
  Maybe I'm answering my own question here, but if I was a man of means, I would have an aged outfit for the wall in my den.
  As a shooter(every weekend,weather permitting), my outfit earns it's patina naturally. My new JP Beck's brass is starting to rot already!

Offline Carl Dumke

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2011, 10:40:01 PM »
I don't understand it. And that is; the artificial aging of accoutrements and rifles. Maybe I'm missing something here? I acquired a F&I horn from Randy Heddon three or four years ago and it has aged naturally and looks very nice. I asked him to leave it "white". I love you guys work on horns and such but can't fathom giving them a 200+ year patina.
  I wanted to scream at Carl to leave it white, but c'est la vie! Who am I? I really enjoyed Carl's tutorial, but don't understand the "aging" part.
Howdy!
In a way you and my wife and kids have a lot in common in this area.  They would love me to leave F&I horns white, but I have yet to find all but a very few, that did not have some sort of coloring.  Not an expert, but I think there may be two reasons--one is possibly camo.  The F&I horns may have been colored to blend in with the environment.  Much of the forces that fought in the northern campaign were levy enlistments of local colonists who brought what they carried to the fight.  Much of the professional military did not carry too many horns--drew a cartridge box from the armory vs using powder from a horn.  A white horn running through the woods would stick out like a sore thumb.  Anyone who has been deer hunting where there are other hunters will tell you never to have white anywhere on your body. 

The second is our love of history.  I think the art is--how do I make something look 200+ yrs old?  I think it is more of a challenge to color the engraved horn and get it to look as real as possible.  A white horn can hide a lot of mistakes or OOPS.  I think an early Philadelphia internal screw tip that is stark white with a black tip is gorgeous--but probably not too realistic.  Many horns without coloring often had a shellac covering which would age the horn over a very long period of time.  I admire folks that can take a white horn and have enough time out in the woods to get the patina!  Good on ya!  I barely have enough time to do all of the painting hornwork I would like to do on top of a full-time job!

Scream away!  Maybe one day I will do a white one.  But right now, I am addicted to fine tuning the aging process.
Carl

Offline Tim Crosby

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18394
  • AKA TimBuckII
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2011, 12:20:17 AM »
 New horns, plain or engraved, to me are just to stark, in your face, no character, in other words lacking something.
Here are four horns two aged and two as new, I do not care for the new look at all. The workmanship can be good, the design well done, turning outstanding, well executed engraving, the whole thing can flow together but they are just to, not sure what the word is…blah maybe. Put a little color on and the makeup changes completely, they soften up some, look like they have a story to tell, look more like they can be used without getting them dirty or scaring them. I see aging as much of the process as making the horn itself, it too is something you must learn to do right. 
 I must say that there are beautiful well horns done that have no color at all on them, engraved and plain. They are just not for me just as aged horns are not for everyone. I did a few basically because people asked about horns with no color. These two have been around for some time and are going to be transformed, they will look completely different.

 Tim C.



eagle24

  • Guest
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2011, 01:00:10 AM »
For me, it is the same as preferring a southern rifle over a pennsylvania rifle, or iron mounted vs brass mounted, or walnut instead of maple.  Like Tim C. said, just personal preference and nothing more.  Some folks like new and some like aged and there is a wide margin between the two.  I'm 48 and a new pouch or horn would probably never take on the look that I like if I used it everyday.  I know this is a sore subject for some (and they are entitled to their opinion), but the "new" look is just not what I like.  I can understand the folks that like a "new" look on a rifle, bag, horn, or whatever.  I don't understand the folks that criticize those who like an aged look (I'm not saying you are criticizing though).  BTW, I don't like the color of my wife's car, but she loves it.

Offline Robert Wolfe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
  • Great X Grandpa
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2011, 01:08:57 AM »
I suppose I have to answer "Why not?"

Some guys like blonds, others brunettes. Who's to say which is right? I like aging if well done.  Probably because I like antiques. Some folks get real worked up over this issue and that is what I don't get. Freedom of choice and all that.
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2011, 09:43:29 PM »
Carl made the best argument I ever heard about coloring horns when he wrote about camouflage characteristics vs a white horn in the woods.  EXCELLENT point !!

Generally speaking, for years I never cared for artificial aging as it often looks like it was artificially aged - though colouring horn for the reason above makes good sense.  I had even more disdain for artificially aging leather shooting pouches because it is even harder to do that and make it look real.  Most of the time, it looked like someone artificially aged it and no one would have done that in the 18th century.  Maybe scuff it up to reduce shine in the woods or colour it darker, but that is about all.

Now that I'm old enough to have served as a young man in the F&I war, it opens something to me when doing Rev War.  Fortunately, the F&I period shooting pouch I made about 30 years ago has naturally aged to agree with me as an older man who is once again going to war in 1775.  (When the Continental Marines were formed.)  I don’t have an F&I period horn and I guess I’m going to have to go with a colored and possibly slightly aged horn to go along with that impression. 

However, in my civilian/militia kit, the next pouch I’m making will look new because it will be a fancier one in keeping with my age and better economic situation than in the F&I war as a young man.  Also, it will not be aged because I either learned how to make a fancier pouch or paid good money or barter for one and I would not want it to look old and partially worn out when I got it as an older man.  No one would have accepted an aged or partially worn out looking pouch for new, “bespoke” work in the period and I’m pretty sure the saddler or leather worker who made it would have refused to do it because it would have caused his reputation to suffer. 

I admit I cringe when I see someone carrying a pouch of the style that could only be a few to 10 years old and it looks like it is 30 to 50 years old (or worse 150 to 200 years old) from artificial aging – when doing a period impression.  Artificial aging looks more like the person did a darned poor job of taking care of his things, except if the item is old enough style to have been made before the time period he is portraying.   However, that’s the re-enactor in me.

But, if someone wants to artificially age their gun, pouch, knife, horn or whatever – that is entirely up to the owner’s desires.  I can find a place in the line or formation well down or away from the person when I’m re-enacting.  Grin.  And it doesn't matter if the person is not doing re-enacting or living history.

Gus
 

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4477
    • Personal Website
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2011, 10:03:35 PM »
Because it looks cool, adds visual interest and to many evokes nostalgic feelings.  Personally I like some carefully done aging work, but also think it has in large part been overused in recent times.  It seems many guns, accoutrements, etc. rely on the visual interest created by "aging" to cary the item.  I believe as a whole, longrifle, accoutrement building etc. could benefit from more focus on design and execution and a little less of the patina business.

Offline whitebear

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 837
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2011, 10:23:40 PM »
BTW, I don't like the color of my wife's car, but she loves it.

In that case it might be good if you loved the color too!!!  ;) ;) ;D
In the beginning God...
Georgia - God's vacation spot

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1864
    • My etsy shop
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2011, 10:57:36 PM »
Carl is right, there is evidence of staining on original horns.  Why I do is give a patina, but I do not consider what I do aging.  To me aging is when you intentionally scratch it up etc.  I have seen some makers that make the horns look older than original horns actually look.  I have seen aged horns with "gunk" on them and I am not sure why that is. 

As a builder the main reason that I do it is because they sell better.  As was pointed out above it creates some visual interest that is not there on plain white.  Also, staining can add a lot to the engraving for some reason, but really make it pop.  I just finished a horn that was engraved and the horn is ot white but caramel colored.  The engraving bare showed up, but when stained it makes it pop. 

What I think is important is that you consider all the elements together when building. 

Coryjoe

Offline T.C.Albert

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3582
    • the hunting pouch
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2011, 11:23:28 PM »
I agree with Jim that a contemporary piece shouldn't as a general rule of thumb, ever sacrifice design, function, or serviceability to achieve "a look"...with that in mind, I find attempting to incorporate a well executed "aged look" into my work is definitely a skill, one that is taking me a long time to refine and get good at. Its my choice to dedicate the time and effort spent at this, and I do it to satisfy an inner vision of the completed piece I see as its being created, and for me that usually incorporates the use of applied patinas.  I cant really say why that's the look I like and try to achieve cause I really dint know, it just is...

In the same vein, I really respect  any artists individual choice to craft and finish the works in his  chosen medium as he sees fit...and I think that we can all agree that credits and encouragements for jobs well done on either end of the spectrum (aged or un) ought to be extended to good works regardless.  I hope anyway.
TC
"...where would you look up another word for thesaurus..."
Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com

BrownBear

  • Guest
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2011, 01:35:00 AM »
I'm the furthest thing from expert, but I'm reforming my impressions of aging, patinas and anything else that contributes to a "not new" look.  I wasn't confident enough in technique to try it on bags or horns when I started making them, as much as I admire the work others accomplish.  So I just went ahead and used mine without apology for looking new.

The funny thing is, two to five years later horns and bags acquire very reasonable wear and patina from regular hard use.  Some of it is blood stains that change color as they age.  Some is sap from vegetation and green "juices" turning brown.  And lord knows there are more than a few scratches and dings.  Smear black powder residue and a fair bit of patch lube over all, and simply by using the stuff, I've done a better job of aging than I would attempt at the bench.

Frankly if a guy complains about something that's been aged, it sezz to me that he doesn't use his gear much in the field and works too hard to clean it after a day on the range.  The aging I've seen done on pieces here is not the least out of line with contemporary reality, much less from a couple hundred years of storage.

omark

  • Guest
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2011, 07:05:18 PM »
i had a post on this very subject not long ago. i feel its a matter of personal preference. back in the day, some people had old beat up used stuff that had been used for yrs, maybe hand me downs. while others could afford and wanted new. much as today. no sense getting wound around the axle about it. its a personal choice and is HC, also.  not trying to be critical here, its just that i dont understand worrying about it. if i offended any one, i apologize, not my intent.    :) mark

FRJ

  • Guest
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2011, 03:42:16 AM »
I figure  that those 200 year old pieces have aquired there patina honestly and if I'm going to pretend that I'm living that long ago my equiptment  should look like it did back then. My stuff  gets a patina in a short period of time anyhow. BUT that's just me and to  each his own. Frank

Leatherbelly

  • Guest
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2011, 03:58:30 AM »
TimBuck2!
 au Contraire! I love the "unfinished" ones, the top one especially! shhh, do you still have it? PM me some time.

  Good replies all. I guess I kind of think like Gus does. Young man's left overs from the F&I wars, now a man of means in a new conflict.
  I'm definately not in any way trying to knock anyones art, just curious. Some like redheads, I like blondes! LOL ;D
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 04:26:56 AM by Leatherbelly »

Online rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19555
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2011, 09:58:38 PM »
It's a perennial subject in the gunbuilding section.  Some folks are passionate one way or the other; many are not and appreciate fine work whether aged or not. It's not necessary to "get it" why the other person likes or does not like aging.  Variety, they say, is the spice of life.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Pat_Cameron

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 186
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2011, 11:51:07 AM »
I often wondered how many guys from 1750ish said to their gunsmith, Make it look like it is 200 years old?  Not too many. Every rifle, horn, bag, knife was new at one time. I would wager that more often then not a new item held a higher value then a used one. A lot of the wear and tear you see on old guns happened in the closet or attic over the past 190 years, not the ten years it was used. What would the rifle of a pioneer or longhunter look and feel like WHEN HE WAS USING IT? It would often times look like a new rifle with a little honest wear and use. The best way to achieve that is through a little honest wear and use. It does not have to look like a browning made in japan all super shiny and perfect. It can look new and not have a shiny finish on it.

Just one man's opinion.

Pat Cameron
AMERICAN LONGHUNTER
Seasoned woodsmen that depend on skill and knowledge to lead them to a successful hunt rather than the crutch of modern technology

http://www.americanlonghunter.com

Offline Majorjoel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3138
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2011, 05:35:00 PM »
I personally like the aged look but have to admit that the work I've seen over the years being done by members of this forum make the job of discernment for an antique collector a real nightmare! Horns especially are so well done and aged that I have about given up looking for high end pieces with higher $ price tags. When looking at TimC's four examples I find the two horns that are not aged look like they're unfinished. I'll bet one of the biggest reasons for ageing horns is that they sell far better than the in the white ones.
Joel Hall

Offline G-Man

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2011, 07:22:01 PM »
This is a timely topic for me and fun to follow.  (And for the record, brunette for me!)  

Different folks arrive at their love of this stuff along different paths.  I completely understand someone interested in living history, recreating, reenacting or representing a specific era to want their rifle to look age-appropriate for the time and place they are portraying.  However, someone whose primary interest is the visual impact of the object or that "something" that is sought by collectors of art or antiques may have a different perspective.  As may the hunter or competitive shooter to whom only the function and performance of a longrifle matter and to whom any aging is equivalent to intentionally damaging a fine tool.  I see all these points and there is merit to all of them.

Personally, I like the look of a bit of well done aging on some pieces that could equally stand on their own merits of design and function  if finished "as new".  But then, my primary interests in these old longrifles at this point in my life are not reenacting or historical trekking - I just enjoy studying, making, carrying, shooting  pieces that I like.  

I agree that aging can be, and is often, carried too far - it should never be  carried to the point of damaging the functionality, lifespan or safety of the item.  And I have seen many examples where it was.  And many examples that just look deliberately beat up, without capturing the warmth and feel of an antique. You can spot a piece that has been boiled too aggressively in Clorox from across the room, and many such finishes really don't  resemble any kind of age or wear you see on antiques - even "relics." There are many people who attempt aged finishes on guns, bags and horns these days but there are a few who are much more adept at it than others.  I find that those who do good restoration work on original items and are skilled and knowledgeable with regard to matching old finishes and materials tend to obtain the most plausible looking aged-contemporary work as well.  

Trying to get back to the original question, as to "why" some folks like aging, it is hard to put into words.  Last week I got to examine what was in my opinion the finest aged contemporary hunting pouch set I have ever personally handled, done back almost 30 years ago by one of the first and best contemporary artists to do ever this sort of thing.  And it just exuded something I find very appealing - the same vibe as some well worn antiques.  I don't know if I can explain why.  It just looked right, not contrived or overdone, in spite of it having many simulated repairs and wear built into it.
 
We tend to think in terms of "wear and patina = age in years".  And that is why some find carrying an aged or worn looking contemporary piece implausible.  But following the "use" line of thinking, I will throw this out there.    If I my objective was to accurately portray a longhunter in Kentucky in 1770 carrying a late 1760s style rifle would I find it unlikely to have what looks like 50 or 75 years of age and grunge and use on it already - absolutely.  On the other hand, would I find it plausibile for a well worn 1770-made piece to be used daily and passed down in a family to pick up 10, 25, 50, or 100 years of wear within the period of it's working life - 1790, 1820, 1850 etc.)- also absolutely yes.  There are so many examples of guns, bags and horns that were carried and used to an extent we cannot comprehend today.  Multiple generations carrying them every day.  Used, cherished, broken, repaired, broken again then restocked or cannibalized into another piece that was used until it too literally was worn down to almost nothing. And still treasured enough that some family member thought to finally put it up and keep it for future generations.  Although I am sure there are some of you who have,  I will conjecture there are very few of us who have ever worn out the straps on a pouch -  much less carried a horn enough to cause visible wear on the inboard side - or a curly maple stocked longrifle long and far enough to literally wear down the wood on a forearm and cause  a polished "rippling" effect to appear, or wear through to the ramrod hole.  But how many, many originals you see with this sort of wear.   Rough scraped home-made horns with the inboard side polished flat and slick as glass from wear - worn through in many instances - wear carrying through the wooden plug; a groove on the neck from strap wear, two or three types of strap attachment devices replaced over the years on the plug, etc.  Wear on a rifle from being carried countless miles on horseback.  This sort of wear occurred during the working life of the object, not the last 100 years it spent sitting on a shelf or in an attic after being put up for the last time.  And I think this type of feel is what the best of the "aging" techniques strive to, and can, convey on a contemporary item and is what is appealing to those of us who like that sort of thing.

Guy
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 07:24:35 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline T.C.Albert

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3582
    • the hunting pouch
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2011, 05:53:55 PM »
Just curious, but based upon everyone's recalled memories, who really should get credit for starting the trend of routinely aging contemporary bags and horns...and when were they actively working and getting recognized for doing it? I think the trend may stretch back at least 40+ years already.
TC  
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 05:56:19 PM by T.C.Albert »
"...where would you look up another word for thesaurus..."
Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com

Online rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19555
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2011, 06:47:38 PM »
I rarely if ever saw aged accoutrements in the 1970's.  I think perhaps aging first showed up on rifles and then caught on in the accoutrement side of things.  Some of the pioneers of the longrifle revival began aging some guns pretty early on.  Earl Lanning and a Dickert rifle he made comes to mind.  When I first saw Herschel House's rifles at Friendship (1978) they were not exactly aged but had a mellow look to them unlike what was popular until then.  He would use scrap steel for patchboxes and it was sometimes pitted.  Back in the day, the brass on many originals at a gunshows shone like polished gold.  Maybe "like rifle, like rifle accoutrements"?  Back in the 70's accoutrements were less likely to be patterned after originals also.  Scrim on horns was often "new school" art, bugling elk in fine detail, stuff like that.  So aging it would not make sense back then since many accoutrements didn't look much like originals anyway.  long story short, maybe the 80's; probably knives led the way.

Chuck Burrows would be the one to know, I'm guessing.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 06:49:34 PM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline Randy Hedden

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2250
  • American Mountain Men #1393
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2011, 08:36:39 PM »
Just curious, but based upon everyone's recalled memories, who really should get credit for starting the trend of routinely aging contemporary bags and horns...and when were they actively working and getting recognized for doing it? I think the trend may stretch back at least 40+ years already.
TC  

Tim,

Although they weren't heavily aged the pouches and horns made by Gary Birch were sometimes somewhat aged.  Then of course a lot of the credit for heavily aged bags, horns, knives and guns should go to Jack Hubbard with his line of "early ugly" stuff.  I believe that between these two we can go back at least 30 years.

Randy
American Mountain Men #1393

Offline t.caster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3730
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2011, 08:40:29 PM »
I think the guys don't want it to look like this is their FIRST RODEO, a, er, Rendezvous. they want their clothes and acoutrements to simply look...Experienced. I have never pre-aged anything to any more than maybe a couple years in the field.
200 yrs. ??? ::)
Tom C.

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2011, 09:03:27 PM »
1974 Spring Shoot at Friendship was where I learned the "then approved" method of aging things on the Primitive Range.  It was to throw the new guys into Laughery Creek. Guess they may not do that anymore.  Grin.

Offline G-Man

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2011, 12:51:58 AM »
Gary Birch.   He was doing aged bags, horns and garments by the early 70s.  He moved his focus to other forms of folk art in the 90s.  Most of his bags and horns that are around today (actually pretty rare to see - but cool when you do) were from the 70s and 80s.  The bag I referred to in my earlier post was made by him in 1983.

As for rifles,  Hershel was the first I know of whose contemporary work was intentionally aged - again, he was doing aging at least by the mid-70s and probably earlier.  But I would reckon he also picked up some tricks from guys who were already using the techniques in restoration work like Earl Lanning, John Bivins, Wallace Gusler and others. I have seen some more recent aged pieces by Mr. Lanning but I don't know how early he started making them.   I believe he was building longrifles by the late 1950s.


Guy
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 01:02:26 AM by G-Man »