Question regarding patch boxes on rifle of Western pennsylvania.

[Rolf]

I've been reading "The longrifles of western Pennsylvania " by Rosenberger & Kaufmann. I find the patch boxes on these rifles with all their piercings fascinating.  I really like the versions of Monongahela Valley patch boxes by Fleeger, Morton and Kettering.

I have never seen any contemporary builder using this type of patch box. Is there any reason why?

Are there any left handed precarves for this style of rifle?

Best regards

Rolf

[tallbear]

Heres one on the second rifle I ever built.It is a rifle based on the work of Jacob Earnest.I am currently makeing  another Earnest rifle but I haven't made the patch box yet.


Mitch

[JTR]

Rolf, You can certainly find lot's of artistic expression on the western PA patchboxes!

Nice job there tallbear! Jacob Earnest made some fine rifles!

John

[Nate McKenzie]

Mitch, I really like your engraving on your patch box.

[Rolf]

Beautiful box of the Keyhole type Tallbear!!! Did you use a precarve for the stock? If so which precarve?

Best regards

Rolf

[Dave B]

Rolf,
The classic Monongahela patch box is a night mare to inlet. I think if there were more customers asking for it you would see more of them. For me I think the point being that when the builder tells the customer that if you want that patch box on the rifle we need to add another $600. to the price. I know that as soon as you start adding piercings to a patch box the time to inlet goes up exponentially. Here is a patch box I have on a project yet to be finished.  It has been a real learning experience.





Here is another patch box from what I think is a W PA or OH  rifle



I have started to use thinner brass to make my patch boxes due to what the originals I was seeing had their boxes made from. I figured if they were able to do it that way Hey why argue. The problem comes when you tap on the metal it bends. If your too deep in an area with the eges too tight you can drive the metal below the surface and it will wedge in and when you pull it up it will more than likely take wood with it. I have found that to check the fit of the more lacey brass work you must use a backing made from wide shaped piece of wood to press the element as a whole to the surface of the wood. You must note that the builders that use these types of patch boxes use nails to secure things more so than screws and its needed because that slim brass just wont stay down in the wood. Its always jumping up. When you do nail it down make sure you are not too zealous with the hammer and nails cuz it will dent the metal around the hole if your not careful.

[Herb]

Tallbear, I like you patchbox and especially the hinge.  Here is a rifle built by Jacob Wigle, Westmoreland Co., PA.  Found in a dry cave with the burial of a mixed blood Indian child north of Vernal in the 1920's.  I cleaned this up for a museum display and so was able to disassemble it, take exact measurements, photos, etc.  The hinge looks like it has 7 knuckles, but the two end ones are caps.  Took me a while to figure it out, along with the toe line "sprung brass plate" PB release (the front one).  I have built three of these rifles now.

[Jim Kibler]

A note about using thin brass for boxes as discussed by Dave B...  One thing that can help is to not anneal the brass or only anneal in the hinge area.  It can also be planished to harden further.  This will help with distortion.  Also the harder brass engraves better. 

[Lucky R A]

Rolf,  
        Here are a few views of a John Fleeger that I did for a client in 2006.   I luckily know both authors of the of the book you referenced, and have handled a number of their guns... Fleeger and several of the others were amazing engravers.  

[Daryl]

Dave B., you're doing just great - good job. Once dressed down a plolished, it'll look like it grew there.

Yowser, Lucky! beautiful job.

[Rolf]

Thank you for the pictures and replies. I really love this style of rifle with it's light and airy patch box. A lot of the other patch boxes on long rifles are to visually massive/compact . NB!! This is just my personal taste and not meant as critique of other patch box styles.

Lucky, that rifle is beautiful
I'd love to make a patch box like the one you made Lucky. I am reasonably skilled with a jewelery saw and could proably make the patch box, but the inleting and engraving is beyond my skill. Are there any other light airy patch box styles I could try for?

Best regards
Rolf

[Rolf]

I think I better explain I am sniffing around for ideas for my second rifle, which I hope to start on in a year or two.

This summer I'll be starting on my first rifle. It will be a left handed Beck style rifle with a wooden patch box. My gun building experience is limited to the three pistols I've made so far, which is why some of my questions/suggestions might seem stupid or over ambitious. Please bear over with my ignorance.

Best regards
Rolf

[Lucky R A]

Rolf,
      I would think if you have patience to cut, file and form the patchbox, you could also handle the inletting. The box is four pieces just as most patchboxes are.  The juncture between the sideplates and the front is simply a thin slice of brass set in much the same as a silver wire inlay.  Certainly not all the patchboxes of the Monongahela type were elaborately engraved.   Simpler line engraving would go a long ways, and you would then have the open airy look of this style box.  You expand your skill set by attempting that which challenges you.  Break the project down to the basic elements, and then it will not seem so daunting.
  

[Herb]

Rolf, here is a Dixie Gun Works "extra fancy Patchbox", from their 1993 catalog.  Somebody gave me this stock and I will never use it.  The box is 10 3/4" long, .160 thick , 2 7/8" wide and weighs 10 ounces.  It could be made to look lighter by sawing the piercings a little larger.  Those large countersunk screw holes could be filled in with brass and smaller screws located.  It wouldn't work for a left handed rifle, but if you want it, I'm giving it away.

Here shows the inlet and butt plate- 3 3/4" tall.

And the stock, inletted for a "Kentucky percussion lock".  Barrel channel is 13/16" by 42".  No cracks in the stock, but no other metal parts than shown.

I will give this away for the cost of mailing, you have first dibbs if you want the PB, or all of it.

[tallbear]

Rolf
I made my rifle from a blank.I don't know of anyone that has a precarve for a Western Pa rifle but I don't really look for precarves so there may be one out there.Also I've seen your work and don't think you would have any problems makeing the patch box.Just remember to have fun!!!!


Mitch

[yip]

this is a very interresting thread, being from this neck of the woods, does anyone have info on this school of rifle?

[Rolf]

Thank you Herb for your kind offer. As you say, the box would not work on a left handed rifle. But I would very much like a tracing of it on a papir. I'll send a pm with my adress.

Best regards

Rolf

[JB2]

Rolf, I'm fairly new here, but I remember seeing your pistols.  If you can do those, I'm betting you can do that fancy pierced patchbox in your sleep! 

[Herb]

Rolf, got the tracing done.  I'll mail it out Tuesday.  You can check Muzzleloader Builders Supply for patch boxes.  They have some from Western PA, some very ornate.  You can put them on the other side for left-handed.