Tansel powder Horn

[JTR]

Mr. no gold asked me to post these pics of his recently acquired Tansel horn, found someplace on a recent trip to the boondocks.
I offered him a solid 25 bucks cold hard cash for it, but for some reason found him unreceptive.
I'll leave it to him for further words regarding the old bug eaten thing.
John











Photo's by Jack Brooks

Enjoy!

[Tanselman]

It's always nice to see a new example of Tansel work, particularly with what appears to be the original butt plug. Not spectacular, but a nice, solid little horn with typical features of Indiana era horns ca. 1840. The figure's face, deer, and eagle appear to be by Timothy, and the slightly overcut "saw" marks where the fishmouth lobes intersect along with somewhat inconsistent chip cuts in engrailing usually indicate Timothy's work.... John and Stark cut their fishmouth corners neater, as well as their chip cuts. Seeing how nice it is, I'll double your standing offer of $25 and go all the way to $50.       Shelby Gallien

[Tim Crosby]

 Great find, Thanks for posting the pics.

Tim C.

PS:Can you tell if the tip been broken off or shortened?

[mr. no gold]

Glad that you like the photos of the Tim Tansel horn. Same one I mentioned last week.
The spout was longer once upon a time, it appears, but was whittled down some; it may have broken, or cracked. The butt plug is a light colored walnut, and seems to be original.
I thought it interesting that the gentleman hunter is wearing fringed buckskin pants, and    high heeled boots. Quite a dandy! Also, the carvings are writ large on the horn which could account for the fact that the figures are fewer in number than one sees on the other horns.
The fourish/riband has some residual color on it still, making me think that the other motifs were colored in. I have another Tansel that still has the coloring on the figures.
The horn itself is somewhat thick and is about a foot across.
Hope this helps.
Dick

[Tanselman]

Dick, just one small comment. The pants on the gentleman hunter are probably not fringed. It may appear that way at first glance, but the pants are actually shaded along the inside of the edges, to give the figure a more dimensional look. By the way, you never said if you'd take my offer, since I doubled the first one you got for the horn. This has been a great year for new Tansel horns coming out of the woodwork. Five new Kentucky era horns have appeared in the last 12 months or thereabouts, and several new Indiana era horns as well, including yours.  Shelby Gallien

[mr. no gold]

Hello Shelby-It has indeed been a good year for Tansels, if that many have come out. I had heard that the value had dropped some for these horns, but not by that much hopefully.
My reasoning on the trouser fringing is based on what is depicted my other horns. 
I looked at the trousers on those and there is no shading of any kind; whereas this has what appears to be just that, (fringing), on close examination.
You have certainly handled and seen many more than I, so we will go with your assessment.
There really isn't much variation in the Tansel repertory and identifying them on the basis of the motiffs used is fairly easy. I have seen one or two that didn't seem to fit the mold, but neither was it certain that they were by the Tansels.
Regards-Dick

[Tanselman]

Dick,  The price on the more standard, later Tansels has leveled off, and perhaps dropped a little if the horn has nothing special to offer. This is particularly true if significantly damaged. Signed and/or dated ones still attract attention, as do ones with more work, or something new. But the earlier Kentucky horns seem to bring stiff prices, higher each time a good new one shows up, so long as it's essentially complete with minimal damage. OK, since you're playing coy in this negotiation for your latest horn, I'll triple your initial offer, and go all the way to $75, but that's my final offer!   Shelby Gallien

[JTR]

I gotta say Shelby that I don’t appreciate you trying to usurp my efforts to acquire this bug eaten thing by upping the offers to 75 bucks!
I think 25 bucks was more than a fair offer, and that the tight fisted mr. no gold might have eventually come to see the light, had it not been for you and your outrageous underhanded tactics!
With all due respect and a huge smiley face,
John

[Tanselman]

John, You're right, I don't know what came over me.... must be all the excitement of seeing a new horn! I'll gracefully back off and let you beat on Dick. But you better use a big stick, "cause he's tough!  Shelby

[mr. no gold]

Alright! You guys win. I have sawed the horn into two pieces, unequal in size. Shelby you get the larger (front piece) for the 75 bucks and John you get the butt plug plus a little of the body for your 25. Hope that this will resolve the angry exchange that has taken place between the two of you and I'll have enough for a half tank of gas.
Dick

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

Dick: Where do buy gas that you can get a tank full for $100. I will drive right over there. Or do you just have a small car?
Hurricane

[JTR]

Ha! No gold doesn't need any gas.
He's so cheap he has his wife pull the car!
John

[Brian]

There aren't as many of those old beat up horns up here in Canada as there are down there you guys.  For that reason, I'll go $150 for it, but only because we're all friends.   

NICE find!  Congratulations Sir.  I'd pay a fair dollar just to actually see and hold a horn like that for a few minutes!

[mr. no gold]

Glad that you like the horn, Brian. If you come stateside and get as far south as southern California, you will be most welcome to come and see/handle it to your hearts content.
Sorry you don't find so many of these things up North. They should be there; I have a friend who found some good horns around Niagra and Queenston. Surely, he didn't get them all.
Thank you for your kind comments.
Best-Dick

[Tanselman]

I've always wondered if a few good, early Kentucky era Tansel horns went to Canada, as battle field trophies of the War of 1812. In some battles, such as River Raisin, I would have thought both American rifles and horns were taken as prizes of war, with some going back to England, and some staying in Canada. For instance, In "American Powder Horns" by Steven Grancsay, there is a "Check List" section on powder horns in the back. In its "Miscellaneous" part on page 81, there is a horn that sounds very much like it could be a Tansel horn up in the Chauvin Museum in Tadoussac, P.Q., Canada. So I'm wondering if our Canadian friend has seen any Tansel horns, or heard of them, up in Canada or in its museums. I also wonder about old collections in Great Britain, and war trophies included powder horns from the War of 1812 that got taken back home by soldiers or officers. By the way, there have been some great Micmac horns come out of eastern Canada along the coast.   Shelby Gallien

[T.C.Albert]

I have wondered the same about Tansel horns ending up in Mexico as well during the War for Texas Independance and the Mexican American war in the late 1840s...assuming some Kentucky horns stayed south and went west...and even if there are tribute horns still out there made for any of the more famous events from those engagements?
T.Albert   

[mr. no gold]

Some thoughts on the propositions of Tansel horn end destinations: the War of 1812 was fought by Army Regulars, militia, assorted 'free lance frontiersmen' and of course the Indians. There is every possibility that Tansel horns, and others, were carried up to Canada, especially by the Shawnees, whether they were captured, or owned.
The Texas War of Independence was a 'free lance' and militia operation with a smattering of troops from Mississippi late in the game. Again, there is every expectation that some of the settler militias and others carried Tansel horns. The time is certainly right.
As to the US War with Mexico, it was fought by Army Regulars who used flintlock and percussion muskets along with paper cartridges in standard combat. There were likely to be few or no free lancers who would have relied on weapons that needed horn containers.
An exception to this might be the 1841 Mississippi rifle which was issued with a Batty, or Ames, brass powder flask. This arm was carried by an Army contingent from Mississippi; hence the name, Mississippi Rifle, used today.
Needless to say there was a lot of travel and commerce in Mexico in those times and any one of such individuals could have carried a Tansel horn(s) down south.
A goodly number of these horns were almost certainly carried out west on the Oregon, Santa Fe and other Western trails. I have one that came out of Kansas in the late 1800s. How many more are out there waiting to be found, I wonder?
All the best-Dick

[G-Man]

I wonder if there was some latitude, whether authorized or not, on what officers might have chosen to carry during the Mexican War?  The reason I ask is that at Ashland, Henry Clay's home in Lexington Kentucky, they have his son Henry Jr.'s  powderhorn on display and his son reportedly carried it during the Mexican War - he was killed at the Battle of Buena Vista, the horn then being sent back to the family.

Shelby - you are probably aware of this horn - I only saw it once, about 15 years ago, and I don't recall much of the details but it did have some engraving  - any thoughts?

It is really fascinating to think about the transition from the eastern frontier to the areas beyond the Mississippi in the early 1800s and where things like guns and horns might have ended up.  If you guys recall that William Cole rifle that we discussed last year - the Coles were a Virginia family who moved first to Kentucky and then on to Missouri in the early 1800s.  William Cole Sr. was killed by Indians around 1810; his brother Stephen survived that battle and then went on to the Santa Fe trade and was killed by Indians on the Rio Grande in 1822.  And William Whitley was the grandfather of the Sublette brothers - Bill Sublette lived at Whitley's home as a kid after his father died.  Lots of that "second generation" of eastern frontiersmen went west - many died there doing just what there fathers had done in Kentucky, Ohio, Tennessee etc. - ranging far into the wilderness hunting, trapping, trading, fighting, guiding etc.  As did a lot of Native Americans as well - there were many full and mixed blood natives from eastern tribes who went west, worked the fur trade, served as guides and interpreters, etc. 


Guy

[mr. no gold]

It is probable that officers had some latitude in the selection of personal side arms, as the enlisted may have, or did not have, in the US War with Mexico. That seems to be the case with edged weapons, certainly. The issue pistols were Aston and Johnson hand guns for the most part, which officers and non coms carried in saddle pommel holsters. It is possible that a few Colt Patersons went into the war and even some half stocked sharpshooter rifles, but a long rifle would have been a detriment. Whether Tansel horns made the trip is conjectural at this time as there is no corrborating evidence. Flasks seemed to prevail.
The Walker Colt made its debut rather late in the War, but proved its worth in short order. 
As to Tansels in the West, they should be out here. A Santa Fe Trail rifle was found in an old estate in Rocky Ford, Colorado. It was a Mier gun made in Somerset, PA about 1835. The owner of that rifle could have carried a Tansel powder horn.
These horns were carried to the California Gold Rush as some have been found in the Sacramento area. The State Museum had a truly fine horn on display, but it may have been stolen by a thief who just happened to be a curator of collections there. As far as I know he still has his job, or a State pension. Not sure either if it was ever returnned.
Just a mental note here; The Santa Fe Trail never crossed the Rio Grande as the river lies somewhat to the West in very mountainous country. The major portion of the Trail went through Clayton, NM, over to Cimarron and down to Glorietta, where it descended to Santa Fe below. I have seen some truly interesting things that were found along the Trail.
Regards-Dick

Dick   

[T.C.Albert]

It seemed to me that maybe Freemont and others involved in some of the "peripheral" events of the Mexican war enlisted the help of just about every "Americano" or sympathizer they could get ahold of...the uprising in general was pretty wide spread I thought? It was these folks and the pillaged settlers I speculate about carrying and maybe losing an odd Tansel or two...its just fun to think about where they could have ended up besides of course the mid west....and how many were actually made? As was pointed out, Tansel horns sure could bridge alot of American history.
Great topic for sure...
T.C.Albert

[Randy Hedden]

There was a resurgence in popularity of scrimshawed powder horns during the Black Hawk War of 1832. The war which was fought in the Illinois territory and the Michigan territory, (now Wisconsin) didn't last very long, but there were a lot of militia troops involved. Seems likely to me that some Tansel horns were used during this Midwestern war? This might explain some Tansel horns showing up in Illinois and Wisconsin.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com

[mr. no gold]

You are correct Randy; there was a whole genre of Tansel horns that portrayed aspects of the Blackhawk War. The Grouseland Museum at Vincennes has the best one I have ever seen, if it is still on display. These seem to be the least common of these carved horns.
Wonder though if these were carved after the war as commemoratives and sold to veterans of the conflict, much as the map horns of the F&I War are now thought to have really been souvenirs, with many carved toward the end of the war.
Perhaps we will hear from Shelby on this subject, who I fervently hope is writing a book on
the Tansel horns and the family who produced them.
As to Fremont, Kearney and the other western filibusterers, they were relatively few in number.  Most seem to have been outfitted with military guns, especially the Hall carbine
breechloader. In the 1840s these appear to have been percussion for the most part. Metal flasks could have been issued to the troops although some could have carried personal equipment, including fancy horns.
If anybody out there in the readership has found Tansels in the outback, hope that they will chime in here and talk about it. We would love to know, wouldn't we folks?
Dick

[Tanselman]

I thought I'd add a couple of comments to the discussion. The "Black Hawk" horns appear to all be commerative. The earliest dated one I've seen, out of the good number of them out there, is from 1838, and most are later. Since Kentucky, I believe, had more troops in the War of 1812 than any other state, I'd surmise a good number of Tansel horns saw action in that war. With most Ky era (pre-1829) horns whose original owner can be identified, the owners were generally well-to-do individuals.

The Ft. Meigs horns by Francis Tansel offer us a small series of Tansel horns with documented owners. All owners of the known horns have turned out to be officers, and all were from the same company of troops who reinlisted in September, 1813 and went on into Canada with General Harrison. Their service culminated in the Battle of Thames where Tecumseh was killed.

I think the Indiana horns, post-1829, were more generalized and probably a little more affordable by the common man. The names on horns that I've chased down seem to be normal, everyday type people, not just the well-to-do of the day. The horns probably spread across the USA just as easily as the old rifles did. I've heard of them turning up in many western states, Just a couple of years ago a Tansel powder horn and cup with Turpin family provenance were auctioned off in Florida. The cup had the initials "D.R.T." for David R. Turpin, who left IN for CA during the Gold Rush and probably took both items with him. Interestingly, Timothy Tansel is buried in the Turpin family cemetery in Hendricks Co., IN. Both families had KY roots.

The Grouseland Tansel is a decent horn, purchased by the Foundation years ago, probably from Bill Guthman since he had adertised the horn for sale at one time. It has since suffered a number of "bug" bites from lack of proper care at Vincennese, and I think I got them to put moth balls inside it to slow any further deterioration. It's a little bigger than the average Tansel of that day, but otherwise the same general figures, with a mounted figure labeled "General W. H. Harrison" on the horn.... the reason for Grouseland purchasing it. Again, it's a later horn, dated 1840. All such horns had to be commerative in nature, since no Tansel accompanied the troops that marched from Indiana to Illinois.

One of my frustrations with Tansel horns is the extremely limited number of horns that survive with their original bags. I can only think of three sets I've seen that I am sure are original, i.e. not "married up, and they are all Indiana era horn & bags. Two of the three bags have some nice tooling on them, much better than average, in keeping with the horn's quality. But I have never seen an original bag & horn set from Kentucky. I used to think cups were the hardest Tansel item to locate, but now I believe it is a horn & bag set from Kentucky.   Shelby Gallien

[mr. no gold]

Great commentary Shelby! Thank you for bringing it to us. You pose an interesting question here in that, did the Tansels make bags in addition to the horns? And, if so, how are they recognizable? Most of us have supposed that the family just made the horns, but why not the whole outfit? It would have been more lucrative for them.
Your comments were welcome and very enjoyable; thanks again.
Dick

[Randy Hedden]

I certainly don't know as much about Tansel powder horns as others on the board, but have just been trying to put two and two together.

In the early settlement of Illinois, the area was settled from the south rather than from the east. The majority of settlers coming to Illinois came from Kentucky rather than from Indiana. Some of my own ancestors came from Kentucky to Illinois and were the first white settlers in what is now Canton, Fulton County, Illinois. It seems possible to me that some of these settlers brought Tansel horns with them from Kentucky to Illinois. According to enlistment records for Illinois, the majority of militia troops that fought in the Black Hawk War of 1832-3 came from a rather small area of Illinois. This area went as far south as Lewiston and Havana Illinois and as far west as the Seneca, Utica, and Princeton area. If some Tansel horns came north into Illinois from Kentucky then some of those horns might have been carried by the Illinois militia troops that marched north during the Black Hawk War. These horns would have been earlier Kentucky Tansel horns rather than Indiana Tansel horns.

I have no proof of any of the above, just speculation.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com