Author Topic: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?  (Read 13577 times)

Offline Loudy

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A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« on: March 27, 2011, 06:42:52 PM »
Mark -

Photos enhanced. Hope this helps. (Nord)





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Here is a classic longrifle from the Upper Susquehanna school.  This gun has everything you would want to see in a gun from this region... except a legible makers signature.  The maker engraved his full signature onto a brass plate that was inlayed into the top barrel flat half way between the breech and the rear sight.  Unfortunately this signature is worn to a point where it can no longer be read.  Many have tried unsuccessfully to dicipher this elusive signature.  Perhaps someone here on the forum will see a feature on this rifle that will point diffenitively toward a particular gunsmith.  Enjoy the photos.  Please offer your thoughts.  Thanks for looking.  

Mark Loudenslager  









« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 03:35:41 AM by nord »

Offline Don Getz

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2011, 02:04:40 AM »
Mark.......wow, what a fancy gun, hope you own it.   Charlie Baum did some real elaborate guns, this one even has that
horn side plate, but the worn off signature sure doesn't seem to fit those scratchings.    There were other gunbuilders
working in New Berlin, I suppose under the supervision of Samuel Baum, and I have seen other guns that looked like
Baum rifles but had different names on the barrel.   I owned one that had the name "M. Beaver" written on the barrel,
very easy to read the name, and it had all of the New Berlin features.   There is little doubt as to where the gun shown
was built, but have no idea of who did it.   Seems like I have seen a similar patchbox before but can't recall who did it....................Don

Offline Spotz

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2011, 04:19:30 AM »
A super Upper Susquehanna Rifle!  I studied that signature many times and do you think its a five letter first name and five letter last name?  The only name I can come up with is Jacob Frock that might have that type of signature but the rifle looks a bit earlier, much like a Dreisbach.  Nevertheless...a great rifle that I, too, hope you own.

Offline Loudy

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2011, 06:01:58 AM »
Don & Spotz,

Thanks guys for your replies.  I have my own hunches regarding the possible maker of is gun.  However, I'll keep them to myself for a few days.  I don't want to influence anyone elses thoughts regarding what's seen or not seen here.  I don't own this gun.  However, it is in good hands.  Thanks again for your input. 

Mark         

Offline Spotz

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2011, 03:37:25 AM »
Mark:

    The more I look at this, I really can see Baum, here.  I just can't get past those up turned horns on this Baum/Dreisbach sideplate.  I wish I could make more out of the signature, but without a signature, I would lean towards one of the nices Baums out there, but I just can't tell with that signature.

keweenaw

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2011, 08:35:13 PM »
I would try putting a piece of thin tracing paper over that signature and doing a rubbing with a soft pencil.  Looking at it in inverse without the glare will clarify it quite a bit.  Another way would be to lightly smoke it in a candle flame and lift of the soot with a piece of scotch tape. This won't hurt the piece one bit.   Tape then goes on a piece of white paper.  I've done this with worn engraving and one can see all sorts of stuff in the smoke print that you can't see otherwise.

Tom

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2011, 12:13:50 AM »
That seriously looks like a Samuel Baum rifle.  How about the possibility that the inlay plate is carrying the owner's name rather than maker?  Not unheard of.  Looks like "David D----"
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Offline Rich N.

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2011, 03:14:35 AM »
 Shreck, you wrote "This is my reason for the Loudenslager idea, rifle has script initials on top flat of barrel"

Is the rifle you included in you post a signed Loudenslager rifle?  

Rich
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 03:17:35 AM by Rich N. »

Offline Don Getz

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2011, 04:34:45 AM »
As Rich stated above, what initials are on your rifle?...........Don

Offline Don Getz

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2011, 06:01:43 PM »
Hey, where did Schreck's gun go to?...........Don

Offline JTR

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2011, 06:20:46 PM »
Teasing you, Don! :o
Put them up, take them down? Strange business but it seems for some reason a couple of the new guys seem to enjoy doing that.  ???
John
John Robbins

Offline Loudy

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2011, 10:13:23 PM »
Thanks again for the reply posts.  I think Eric was on the mark with his suggestion that the name on the inlay plate is that of the original owner of the rifle and not the builder.  To my eye, the signature looks like "Danl Duck".  The owner of the rifle and I have jokingly referred to this rifle as the "Donald Duck" gun  ;D.  He's going to try the smoke print idea that Tom suggested.  I'll keep everyone posted regarding any new revelations this technique may reveal. 

I agree with those that have speculated that this gun came out the gunsmith shop of Samuel Baum.  I believe the rifle was originally equiped with a flintlock and converted to percussion.  The rifle was probably built circa 1805-1815.  I checked the 1810 census records for the areas surrounding New Berlin, in Northumberland County, PA where Sam Baum's gunsmith shop was located.  This area became Union County in 1813.  I found a Daniel Duck, occupation "Cooper", age >45 yrs., residing in Penns Township, Northumberland County .  I believe Mr. Duck lived a half a mile North of the village of Kreamer along Middle Creek, about 10 miles South of New Berlin (mapquest link http://mapq.st/fwOXXK).  This area became part of Snyder County in 1855.  An interesting sidenote, in 1850 the Duck's residence was just down the road from where gunbarrel maker John Henry Wetzel worked.

This is an incredible rifle.  I thank the owner for allowing me to share the photos.  I hope others jump in here with additional comments. 

Mark Loudenslager 

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2011, 03:04:01 AM »
Wonderful, and yet another good reason to scour through census records and tax lists!

I seem to remember old Alex C. (what a ridiculous laugh he had!) doing the same type of research a number of years ago in relation to his Moll rifle - the pinnacle of the Moll rifles that I have seen - to opine that it was made for Isaac Greenleaf, quite wealthy and prominent in Allentown.

This is *my opinion only* but on the occasions when I see names engraved on brass/silver/gold inlaid plates on eastern PA barrels, it seems that most of the time, it is an owner's name rather than maker.  Not always, but to my opinion and experience, more frequently than not.  Maybe I'm wrong, but at the moment it sounds right.

That really is one heck of a rifle.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 03:07:36 AM by Eric Kettenburg »
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Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2011, 04:24:58 AM »
I'm with Eric on this..I site the most finely engraved Shreckengost rifle known, bears another mans name.
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Offline Loudy

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2011, 04:37:53 AM »
Here are some additional photos of this fine rifle for your viewing pleasure.  Take particular notice of the small strip of wire inlay that extends forward from the front tip of the comb overlay to the wrist.  This is an unusual feature not seen, by me anyway, on any other Upper Susquehanna rifles.  Also included here are a couple additional photos of the mystery signature. 

Mark Loudenslager









Offline Loudy

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2018, 07:46:27 PM »
Jim,
Picking up this old thread here regarding the gun we’ve nicknamed the “Donald Duck” gun.  To summarize where we’re at on this gun I am offering the following conclusions:

- The gun was made by a highly skilled Upper Susquehanna school gunsmith.
- The gun is in original flintlock configuration.
- The engraving on the signature plate on the barrel is no longer readable with 100% certainty.

Here are my hunches about this gun, it’s maker, and owner:

- The signature plate and barrel are original to the gun.
- The engraved script signature reads “Danl Duck”.
- Daniel Duck was the original owner of the rifle and not the gunsmith that made it.
- The gun was made in the 1790-1820 period.

I have come across new information while researching early 19th century folks named Daniel Duck.

The 1810 federal census for Penn Township in Northumberland County Pennsylvania lists a Daniel Duck as a resident.  His occupation is given as “Cooper”.  The area he lived in is now Snyder County, PA on the Western banks of the Susquehanna River.  Nearby towns, then and now, include Selinsgrove, New Berlin, and Middleburg.  This area is considered to be the center of the Upper Susquehanna school of gunmakers.  In the 1810 census, the only gunsmith listed as a resident of Penn Township was George Gaugler.  George Gaugler was one of the earliest gunsmiths in the area.  There were other gunmsmiths working in surrounding townships.  FYI... my GGGG grandfather Henry Laudenslager (occupation blacksmith) was also a resident of Penn Township in 1810.  His son’s Samuel and William both grew up to be gunsmiths. Both were born after 1810. Sorry, got off on a tangent here. 

I have not yet identified the father of Daniel Duck of Penn Township PA.  There was a prominent early resident of that area named John Tuck.  Dr. Fisher, an early Snyder County researcher, wrote that the Tuck surname was also written as Duck.  Still trying to sort out the family connections here.  I am having trouble believing that Donald Duck the young barrel & bucket maker, could have commissioned the building of a very expensive longrifle. 

Additional thought and input appreciated.

Mark

Offline Loudy

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle - Who Made It?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2018, 08:34:18 PM »
PS... it was great to re-read the old posts above from Mr. Don Getz.  He was such a great person.  A true gentleman.  I always appreciated any opportunity to talk with him.  FYI... Don lived and worked in the heart of Upper Susquehanna country. I used rifle barrels from his shop on several of my best shooting rifles.  His gun show in Lewisburg continues to be one of the best places to see original rifles from the Upper Susquehanna school area.  Don is sincerely missed by many. 

Mark

Offline 120RIR

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2018, 08:47:05 PM »
I will defer to more experienced engravers but I'm no "piker" myself having been hand-engraving in the 18th/19th century style for the reenacting set for decades.  I started to look at this signature from a cut-by-cut perspective and matching that up with likely letters and no matter how hard I try I can't discern David Duck... 

First word - first letter is highly stylized and could indeed be a "D" but it could also be something else - a "J" or an "I" for example.  Second letter - definitely a lower-case "a".  Third letter has cuts consistent with a lower-case "u" (assuming both cuts are for the same letter) and the last cut...possibly a lower-case "t". 

Second word, first letter - almost certainly the same as the first word - a stylized J, I, or part of D.  After that I see possibly the traces of a lower-case "r", then something like a lower-case ', c, e, d, or r, etc (all containing similar downward cuts).  Fortunately, that last letter is clearly a lower-case "k".  Granted, the engraver may very well have had his own techniques and styles but being more than a little familiar with those techniques and styles myself, no matter how hard I try I'm not getting David Duck or "Tuck". 

Lastly, I would think if the engraver went to the trouble of adding what appears to have been a nicely done signature, his spacing was not all that great and he left a lot of blank space on the right...after the "k".  Hence - another possibility; the lower-case k was somewhere in the middle of the last name. 

There are many possibilities and I'd like to hear others from the engraver's perspective.


Offline Loudy

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2018, 08:54:07 PM »

120RIR,
Thank you for your engravers perspective on this mysterious signature.  I appreciate your insights.  I speculated that the signature reads “Danl Duck” short for Daniel Duck, not David Duck.  I don’t think this changes your doubts any.
Mark

Offline 120RIR

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2018, 09:33:13 PM »
"Daniel"...yeah...that's the ticket!  ;)  Indeed - either way it doesn't quite add up to me but I'd love to hear from other engravers.  Again - the original engraver's style and techniques may have differed greatly from what I've seen and done which could account for a lot.  Hopefully others will weigh in.  Regardless, exact signature or not, it's one beautiful rifle!

brokenflint

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2018, 02:14:11 AM »
what does a rubbing show?  just curious if I could see a different perspective with a rubbing, compared to the glare I see from the photos.

Offline jdm

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2018, 03:33:41 AM »
Mark , as always thank you for your research.  I've  looked at this signature  for so many years that all I see is Danl Duck. I hope some fresh eyes might come up with something else. I have searched for other rifles with some of these tell tale similarities but to date the only one I've seen is the rifle that belongs to Oldsouthrelics  ( Bob) in the other post here. Bob thanks for posting.  With this guys workmanship you would think there might be more floating around somewhere.
I agree more than  likely its  the owners name on the barrel but you never know. I do not recall ever seeing picture documentation on gunsmith George  Gaugler . Have you?
In the picture of the top of the comb by the half moon  the  brass ends and the tip of the inlay  is metal. I'm wondering if this is another small detail unique to this maker.

Thanks everyone for looking .

Mark ,as an after thought . Do you know  about Danl Ducks parents? Maybe a nice wedding gift???


JIM

Offline jdm

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2018, 03:39:08 AM »
120RIR Thanks for your new set of eyes . I'm writing you ideas down on paper to help in a search.
JIM

Offline Don Stith

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2018, 04:29:01 AM »
Anyone else see Dunkle or Daniel in the last name?

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: A Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... Who Made It?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2018, 05:42:20 AM »
Very well could be.  I feel that what looks like a "k" as interpreted as the final of "Duck" for a surname is too short and is not the actual end of the engraving.  If it were, the engraver left a disproportionate amount of space following the final and it looks unbalanced.  I would bet that regardless of what the surname actually is, there is a letter (or two?) or something else almost completely worn away or entirely worn away at the end.

I'm still uncertain as to whether we're looking at the maker's name or an owner's name.  After all these years, I still think the gun very much looks like a Samuel Baum product in most respects, *excepting* the box engraving, which looks a bit non-Baum.  Given this engraving, I'm not really sure what to think.
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