Author Topic: ALR Museum Gunsmith: Andrew Klein/Kleindinst... York Co, PA. (Read 15487 times)

Hurricane ( of Virginia) · « **on:** May 29, 2011, 08:51:45 PM »

The gunsmith Andrew Klein/Kleindinst is presented. York Co ,which he represents, remains amongst the finest center of gunsmithing known for its "artistic merit."

Here is the URL:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=16559.0

Please add you comments as a reply here.

The Museum Committee

Buck · « **Reply #1 on:** May 30, 2011, 05:40:33 PM »

Nord, The rifle has had 2 repairs, I thought that I had mentioned to you prior. The forestock at the middle ramrod pipe to the muzzle was replaced. The wrist was also cracked and repaired, I do not know when the repairs occurred as did the previous owner. The stock is not the greatest on this rifle, but as was stated before the furniture is very nice and the engraving is exceptional although the abundance is minimal. The thing that is interesting about this rifle is the disagreements that occurred years ago, Kindig claimed it to be Andrew Kleindinst, and Whiskers claimed it to be Andrew Klein, both from York, the barrel is marked A + K and the wrist is checkered. In the simplicity of it all I and several others (being of German descent) thought that the name was shortened. Remember the Haga saga (Hawken) and Foundersmith (Von Der Schmidt) a lot of times these names were corrupted by census workers and courthouse misinterpretations.

Kline · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2011, 03:36:39 AM »

Hello, I ran across this forum and this post this afternoon, while doing a search on Andrew Kline. I am Andrew Kline's great, great, great, grandson, and did a lot of research on him in the early 1990's, as I recall. I can tell you Andrew Kline and Andrew Klinedinst are two different men. I would love to discuss and share what I know with anyone interested here.
I also own a rifle Signed A+K which I believe to be Andrew Kline and am sure I have evidence to prove it. I have in my time held at least 2 rifles signed A Kline, with all the attributes of the rifle in this post and mine. the patch box on my rifle is a dead ringer for the rifle in this post. The stylized K is the same as the full Kline signed rifle and is the same stylize k used in documents signed by Andrew's father, Conrad.
Back in the day I spent hours at the York historical society, visited a few private collections, spoke whit Goerge Shumway, tried to contact James Whiskers ( I got the impression he didn't want hear what I had to say, which strikes me as odd considering he now attributes many formerly thought to be Klinedinst rifles now to be Kline) built a few rifles and it was my passion. Sadly many things pulled me away from it and now after many, many years, I am trying to get back into it. So if anyone would like to start a discussion on Andrew Kline, I would be pleased to share and learn.
Thomas S. Kline

Fullstock longrifle · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2011, 11:52:29 AM »

Welcome to the site, I would enjoy reading your information about the gunsmith Andrew Kline, I've heard many differing opinions about whether Kline and Kleindinst were one and the same and was recently told by a major collector that they were the same man. I have always suspected that they were two different people, but never had the proof to back it up. Thanks for offering to share your research.

FK

JTR · « **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2011, 03:56:57 PM »

Welcome to the site Kline!
I'd also like to hear your information, and also see some pictures of your rifle!
It would be best to start a new thread, so as to not confuse things with this rifle.

Buck, I wonder if you can post a picture here of the A+K signature on your rifle, to compare to Klines' , if he posts it.
And thanks for offering your rifle to the library Buck, it's a nice looking gun!

John

Kline · « **Reply #5 on:** August 22, 2011, 04:20:41 PM »

I will dig out my research, it is all hand written and photo copies. It was done before I had a computer and lap tops were not seen. My photos are 35mm as I had never heard of a digital camera then. I think I may have photos of one of the signed rifles that I got from George Shumway, that had not been published at the time.
One thing I could never find at the time was a Klinedinst rifle, photo or otherwise, showing his signature, does anyone know of one.
Also all off the signed Kline rifles I saw were signed K L I N E and not K L E I N. Older records I came across, I was able to trace my direct line back to 1755, the spelling was some times Klein, the correct german spelling.
Tom

Kline · « **Reply #6 on:** August 22, 2011, 07:33:54 PM »

HOLLY COW! Let me tell you how far out of it I am. My rifle is a full signature, that is to say it is signed A+Kline. I also have the Shumway pictures showing a full "Kline" and matches the signature on my rifle.
I also have copies of 1850 census listing Andrew Kline and Andrew Klinedinst, both listed as gunsmiths. A copy of an ad for Andrew Klinedinst in Kaufmans book shows shows a date of 1825 and Andrew kline is on the tax list of Hamilton township, Adams county, for that year and years before and after. His occupation is gunsmith. Two different men.
To those who have sent me private emails, thank you and I will try to reply to you tonight.

I failed to mention the ad for Klinedinst puts him in York, on South Beaver street in 1825, Kline is Hamilton Twp in Adams county in 1823 to 1840 Tom

Buck · « **Reply #7 on:** August 22, 2011, 10:22:14 PM »

Kline,
Welcome, I have since sold this rifle to a friend.
JTR,
When I submitted the pictures I also submitted a photo of the signature. I have it on file and will send it off to Nord for submission. The several photos that I have seen of both makers the "K" is almost identical. I will submit and the forum can debate.
Buck

Buck · « **Reply #8 on:** August 22, 2011, 10:33:18 PM »

Kline,
This mans engraving was phenominal, unfortunately there was not a lot of it on the rifle.
Buck

Kline · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2011, 10:36:42 PM »

I failed to mention the ad for Klinedinst puts him in York, on South Beaver street in 1825, Kline is Hamilton Twp in Adams county in 1823 to 1840 Tom

Kline · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2011, 10:41:51 PM »

Buck, Andrew Kline seems to have almost always used that little edalwise (spelling?) or small flower on his patch box covers.

Tom

Buck · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2011, 05:50:57 PM »

Kline,
I sent the picture off to Nord in hopes that he will post the photo today. I am interested in seeing your rifle as well. Whiskers had written that after 1828(?) that KLein was taxed as a Postman. We had debated amongst ourselves if these 2 Gentlemen were one in the same. If you have the research records I would be grateful if you posted it. I sold the rifle a couple of months back to a friend of mine and would like to share with him the information so he has the correct attribution.
Buck

Kline · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2011, 07:34:17 PM »

Hi Buck, Andrew Kline was the post master of Dover at one time also ran an Inn there for awhile. Last evening I found that I could google the 1850 census, Type in Andrew Klinedinst gunsmith york Pennsylvania 1850 census, then do the same for Andrew Kline. In 1850 both Andrews are in the south ward Of York, both listed as gunsmiths. Andrew Klinedinst is living in a home with another family and is 62 years old. Andrew Kline is living with his wife and children and is listed as 64 years of age, I think it should be 69, as he was born in 1781. I have copies of the original hand written census and the numbers are hard to read, even Klinedinst age looks more like 63 or 65. Andrew Kline's son Joseph is my great great grandfather and is buried in the cemetery in Manchester Pa. This alone should be enough to show they are to different men.
Andrew Kline spent from around 1823 to 1840 in Hamilton Twp in Adams county most likely in or near East Berlin, as I found mention of Andrew Kline as a vestryman of a Lutheran church there. The 1823 to 1840 dates are from the Hamilton county tax records where he is list as a gunsmith several times. If you are not familiar with the area East Berlin is not very far from Dover.
Also A Klinedinst advertises his shop in York in 1825 and at that time A Kline is in Hamilton Twp Adams county. Andrew Klines father was Conrad Kline who is said to have been a gunsmith in an history of York county book( I will have to find my notes of the title and author)
I will try to scan some of my 35mm photos and post picture of 4 rifles and 1 shotgun(?) signed

Kline · « **Reply #13 on:** August 23, 2011, 07:39:07 PM »

Buck, wrote so much I ran out of room. Anyway I hope to put something together to post in the museum section and look forward to more discussion.

Tom

Bill of the 45th · « **Reply #14 on:** August 23, 2011, 11:51:34 PM »

Welcome Klein. Is this a great site or what? Great info, Thanks

Bill

Kline · « **Reply #15 on:** August 24, 2011, 02:31:19 AM »

signatures of 5 A. K. rifles. I will scan and post pictures of the guns they belong to, starting with the first signature as time allows. Enjoy and please comment.

Kline · « **Reply #16 on:** August 24, 2011, 02:59:24 AM »

Rifle that goes with no. 1 signature. I got these pictures years ago from Geo. Shumway, met the owner and have more pics. Built a copy of this rifle for my brother and got a judges choice ribbon a Dixon's in the early 90's

Kline · « **Reply #17 on:** August 24, 2011, 03:32:07 AM »

This is the rifle that belongs to signature no. 2. This is my rifle, I will get some better digital pictures of her and post later. Last picture is of a copy I built of it and got a 2nd place at Dixon's, also in the early 90's

Kline · « **Reply #18 on:** August 24, 2011, 03:55:13 AM »

This one belongs to initialed no 3. Don't quite remember where I got these photos, I think some one sent them to me in hopes I would buy. I think the rifle was in California. Then as is now I was too poor to buy it.
  I think this rifle is in one of Whiskers' books.
  Well that's all for tonight, my eyes are gettin heavy and I have to watch Top Shot with my nephew. Hope you like the pics.
   Good Night,
   Tom

Kline · « **Reply #19 on:** August 25, 2011, 03:29:21 AM »

This is the rifle that belongs to no. 4 A K initials. came across this rifle at the Baltimore show, again in the early 1990s and the seller was kind enough to let me photograph it. As you can see, he has it marked as a Klinedinst. Boy I wish I had the money to buy it back then. The gentleman who did eventually buy it, allowed me to take more photos, but sadly they didn't come out as clear as these.

Kline · « **Reply #20 on:** August 25, 2011, 03:55:31 AM »

Gun belonging to the last set of initials. This musket or fowler or what ever you want to call it, has nothing in common with any of the above rifles, except the initials.

I am adding the rifle that is in the beginning of this post to allow us to continue our comparison. Buck was kind enough to send me the signature which I added to the others.

Kline · « **Reply #21 on:** August 25, 2011, 04:23:21 AM »

Ok, one more rifle for you to consider in this little study, besides the 4 I posted (plus the musket) and the one originally posted in this thread (please post it's signature). Kindig's book, page 321, rifle No. 139. signed A.K. Compare the engraving and carving to the other rifles in this post. Even Kindig found little simularity between this rifle and the signed Andrew Klinedist on page 320.
So come on guys what do you think, let's hear it.

Tom

PS does anyone know if there is a photo of the Klinedinst signature on the rifle on page 320?

Fullstock longrifle · « **Reply #22 on:** August 25, 2011, 05:53:08 AM »

The Klein rifle that George Shumway gave you the pictures of is a grand rifle, it's also pictured in Dr. Whiskers book on York County Gunsmiths. It recently sold at auction in Gettysburg Pennsylvania.

FK

Robert Wolfe · « **Reply #23 on:** August 25, 2011, 03:19:40 PM »

Kline, Thanks for posting all the pics. But, if you go back and put a carriage return ("enter") between each picture they will line up on top of each other and not stretch the page out so wide. Makes the post easier to read.

Kline · « **Reply #24 on:** August 25, 2011, 04:09:07 PM »

Robert, I am not quite sure I know what you mean, as I view the post, the picture are on top of each other. Is anyone else seeing it as Robert does? If so I will try his suggestion.

Tom

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Author Topic: ALR Museum Gunsmith: Andrew Klein/Kleindinst... York Co, PA. (Read 15487 times)

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