Author Topic: PA Rifle but where and who? (toeplate pictures added 6/20)  (Read 27136 times)

Offline Collector

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Re: PA Rifle but where and who? (toeplate pictures added 6/20)
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2011, 05:00:37 AM »
I don't believe that the lock is original to this piece and presents as a 'distraction,' if you will,  I submit that the original lock had a small 'tit' or 'tail' that would more properly fit the lock recess. 

There are so many repeating elements on this piece, lock panels, portions of raised and incised carving behind the cheek piece or entry pipe, that can be identified on this piece and attributed to known makers.  I was going to throw out Jacob Ferree (or one of the Ferre family) as a possible influence (??)... but that stepped toe?

The incised carving incorporated in the 'C' scroll (to the immediate rear of the cheek piece,) which rolls-out and away from the scroll and returns to it, creating, but not making, two (2) opposing complete circles at ~9 & 3 o'clock, is so very unusual, in my mind's-eye. 

An unknown apprentice influenced by more than one Master and this piece built as his Journeyman's piece??   Representative elements, but no adherence to a particular/recognized 'school.'

There is something in this family's early history that bears some investigation and it just might provide a real clue: possibly even an advance in our knowledge of interactions between the various gunsmiths in PA.

Actually, I think I'm right back where I started.  What does that mean...??:-\

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: PA Rifle but where and who? (toeplate pictures added 6/20)
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2011, 05:37:05 AM »
Why do you think the lock isn;t original?  Obviously been reconverted badly, but the plate and the integration of the plate into the stock and the lock panels/molding looks original to me.  Obviouly yanking it out might shed more light on it, but I don;t have a problem wit it.  imho.

Hey Gary any chance for a slightly less myopic photo = something like a wider profile of the gun from the forestock back to butt, might help to offr a clearer conceptualization fo the big picture.

I keep coming back to look at this.  Rea;lly cool rifle.
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Offline Collector

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Re: PA Rifle but where and who? (toeplate pictures added 6/20)
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2011, 07:00:55 AM »
Eric, No debate, on my part, about a poorly done reconversion of the lock and while the front and bottom portions of the lock look like a good fit, the gap along the rear/tail of the lock brought about my comment.  Perhaps (re)stating the current lock appears, to me, to be a period replacement (of the 'original-original') would more accurately reflect my interpretation.

No doubt, it's a cool rifle.

Offline Dale Campbell

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Re: PA Rifle but where and who? (toeplate pictures added 6/20)
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2011, 02:21:38 PM »
The cracks through the wrist may well be shifting the back of the lock inlet away from the lockplate, making it look like a bad fit.
Best regards,
Dale

Offline rich pierce

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Re: PA Rifle but where and who? (toeplate pictures added 6/20)
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2011, 06:14:33 PM »
I noticed the 7 knuckle hinge on the patchbox.  That's unusual and could rule out certain builders if it was first work and made by the gunstocker.
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xring2245

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Re: PA Rifle but where and who? (toeplate pictures added 6/20)
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2011, 06:29:02 PM »
Might be worthy of a restoration project by a qualified gunsmith

Offline bgf

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Re: PA Rifle but where and who? (toeplate pictures added 6/20)
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2011, 08:14:44 PM »
I noticed the 7 knuckle hinge on the patchbox.  That's unusual and could rule out certain builders if it was first work and made by the gunstocker.

The daisy boxed Antes rifle that Guy pointed out has only 5, but they are pretty fine -- closer to this one than many.

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: PA Rifle but where and who? (toeplate pictures added 6/20)
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2011, 07:31:00 PM »
Hey Gary any chance for a slightly less myopic photo = something like a wider profile of the gun from the forestock back to butt, might help to offr a clearer conceptualization fo the big picture.
I keep coming back to look at this.  Rea;lly cool rifle.

Eric,
Unfortunately these are the only pictures I recieved. I have not had a change to see the rifle in person or take any pictures of it. I hope that will change soon but it is not located near here.
Gary
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Offline rlm

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Re: PA Rifle but where and who? (toeplate pictures added 6/20)
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2011, 08:52:25 PM »
It has been suggested that this rifle may have been made by Issac Berlin.
I am no way an expert on Issac Berlin but for what it is worth, last weekend at the KRA show there was displayed a rifle very similar in architecture with similar carving behind the barrel tang, carving similar in form rear of the cheek piece and the beavertail tails on the lock moulding had those little lopes at the end. The rifle had an engraved patchbox with a flower finial but not the typical Lancaster Daisy. As far as I could see the rifle was unsigned. The rifle was in the president's display witch featured rifles from western PA. Handling of the rifles was prohibited, and viewing a rifle on a rack has its limitations. I do not know who owns the rifle. The description said "Issac Berlin", and I would assume it was supposedly made by him after he left York county post American Revolution. I think he was awarded a land grant in western PA as a reward for his service in the Continental Army and may have produced some rifles while he was there.

 Please, any one, correct me if I have misrepresented any facts regarding Berlins service or his movement to Western PA. I Have not researched this, only stating remembrances of past reading, witch in my case may not always be totally reliable.

The rifle will be photographed and a CD will be made available by the Kentucky Rifle Foundation.

BTW great show.

Offline smshea

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Re: PA Rifle but where and who? (toeplate pictures added 6/20)
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2011, 12:35:33 AM »
I was not at the show this year but I'm sure the rifle you speak of is the rifle I handled last year and mentioned in an earlier post. Again, it was not Identical to this but I thought of it as soon as I saw these pictures. The gun was attributed but the consensus was Berlin and it showed influence from some of the places he had been known to work. It was a real 'School' buster.
Either way I am glad to hear that quality photos will be taken of that rifle, I thought it one of the most interesting guns in the room aside from the great Lehigh display of last year. 

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: PA Rifle but where and who? (toeplate pictures added 6/20)
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2011, 12:39:57 AM »
RIM,
I agree that the rifle on the display rack at the KRA looked very much like the same hand (or at least same shop) as this rifle we are discussing. I wish someone there could have explained why it is believed to be by Berlin. It's pretty different from the three signed Berlins I know about.

In addition to the carved details you mentioned the star engraving was almost identical. The box was very different and I have not had time since returning from the show last night to see what it might be related to. It was distinctive and well engraved.

Like you I was frustrated that the rules around the "President's Table" prevented the closer examination normally allowed at the KRA. I also talked to Mr. Bishop and he said the CD production may be delayed until two years can be put on 1 CD.
Gary

"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
http://flintriflesmith.com

Offline Stan

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Re: PA Rifle but where and who? (toeplate pictures added 6/20)
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2011, 04:37:20 PM »
Definitely Christians Spring made by Valentine Beck !  ;D

Sorry I just couldn't restrain myself.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 04:47:37 PM by Stan »

Leatherbelly

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Re: PA Rifle but where and who? (toeplate pictures added 6/20)
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2011, 10:42:16 PM »
   What an interesting rifle. I'm am barely a novice at this sort of thing but noticed a few interesting carving details. Behind and in front of the cheek. And the trikker guard. Beckish? How about the little sun or star behind the cheek? JP put this "star" on the tang on some of his rifles,did he not? The trigger guard is really close also. The PB is kinda mysterious! Dickert? Maybe these guys traded parts in tough times,who knows? Sorry if my observations are amateur.
 
  (using a lot of meds these days. please delete if inappropriate)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 07:46:57 PM by CanvasBack »