Breech plug question

[Ken G]

I'm cheap.  No need to buy something unless you really need it.  I do a lot of barrels and don't want to hunt down a cheater bar each time so I have 2 15" wrenches.  One straight jaws and one tapered jaw.  You may decide you want one after trying to use your 10" wrench but wait and see.  There will be PLENTY of things you need to buy tools for.  For instance be thinking ahead to taking your lock apart.  I strongly suggest having a mainspring vise rather than using vise grips but that's anothe topic. 

Scrap brass can be found in a lot of places.  Toe kick boards on doors are a good source and normally plenty thick. 

[mbokie5]

I'm cheap.  No need to buy something unless you really need it.  I do a lot of barrels and don't want to hunt down a cheater bar each time so I have 2 15" wrenches.  One straight jaws and one tapered jaw.  You may decide you want one after trying to use your 10" wrench but wait and see.  There will be PLENTY of things you need to buy tools for.  For instance be thinking ahead to taking your lock apart.  I strongly suggest having a mainspring vise rather than using vise grips but that's anothe topic. 

Scrap brass can be found in a lot of places.  Toe kick boards on doors are a good source and normally plenty thick. 

The tapered jaws are a good idea.

I may be able to scrounge some brass plate that way. Good thinking.

I have a quantity of brass, but it's all flat bar and a large spike.

[Ken G]

Any flat brass will do if its thick enough.  You want something rigid but still softer than the steel your barrel is made from. 

[mbokie5]

Any flat brass will do if its thick enough.  You want something rigid but still softer than the steel your barrel is made from. 

so about door kicker thickness?

[Scott Bumpus]

Hammer a couple 30-06 cases flat with rim cut off. works in a pinch and is cheap.

[James]

Having gone through this not long ago, I will throw my 2-cents for consideration. You may have a stock that is pre-inlet for the plug and barrel, but the plug inlet will probably not allow the plug to be dropped in. You are less likely to mess up the stock edges of the barrel inlet if you are just taking the plug in and out the 30 or so times you will until you get the fit right.  Putting the barrel with the plug, in and out that many times is like sending up a flare for Murphy.

I could not get and acceptable fit by inletting the tang separately from the barrel.
But if the inlet is off .003 when done there is a gap.
Inlet the barrel and tang as a unit.
Pantographs are often "off" by as much as .010 or maybe even more so simply enlarging the cut to match the tang is not going to work in many cases.
At least not for me.

Dan

 Dan, I stand corrected. As usual I was short sighted in trying to overcome the part of doing it the right way that I saw as a good way to chip out the tang area. I now see why the way you say and the way I did mine was a better approach. Thanks for setting me straight. Sorry mbokie for leading you astray. Jim

[Dennis Glazener]

Scrap brass can be found in a lot of places.  Toe kick boards on doors are a good source and normally plenty thick. 

I have used aluminum plate, also flattened lead works well if tighten enough. I suspect copper would work if its thick enough.
Dennis

[mbokie5]

Hammer a couple 30-06 cases flat with rim cut off. works in a pinch and is cheap.

Got gobs of those. I'll try that. It's one of the cfs I still shoot.

[mbokie5]

No harm done James.

[mbokie5]

Holding the barrel:  I position some .040 brass plates between the barrel and the vise jaws.  Wood will not work for this in most cases because the breech will be on too tight..  The barrel will twist when you put a lot of pressure on it.  Even hard oak will give enough to allow the barrel to twist in the jaws which could result in your first payment to the school of “learning the hard way”.  Do not clamp the barrel where the vise jaws are putting pressure on the breech plug threads so leave about ¾” of barrel sticking out of the vise.
 

Ken gave you good instructions but I want to emphasize that you want a STRONG vise/clamp to hold the barrel. I made mine out of  1.5 " aluminum bars, cut vee to mate barrel flats then line them with brass. Really tighten down on the bolts and fasten the clamp to a heavy table top. Sometimes I have to "persuade" the plug with a large hammer but my crescent wrench is not 15" only about 10". Not that bad if you have a good way to clamp the barrel but a rough job otherwise.
Dennis

Ken, what sort of jaw vice do you use? I have a medium sized wood vice I want to use. I'll put some oak on the jaws and then some 1/16th brass plate to further protect and hold the barrel.

Will that work?

Dennis, that sounds like really craftsmanship. Would you have a pic of that set up?

[Ken G]

I don't know what you are calling a wood vise? 

Here's a picture of the smallest vose I use for barrels.  Sorry but I could not tell you what size they call this.  One of the smaller vises the big box stores sells is all I know. 

[mbokie5]

I don't know what you are calling a wood vise? 

Here's a picture of the smallest vose I use for barrels.  Sorry but I could not tell you what size they call this.  One of the smaller vises the big box stores sells is all I know. 

Well, I'm no expert but I call that a small mechanic's vice.

Here's what I call a wood vice:



But the vice you have obviously does the trick. I have one of those as well.

[Birddog6]

This is what I use to unbreech my barrels.  It is a 6" (wide) Wilton vice from Lowes. 2 strips of an old brass kickplate off a door.  The least amount of material you have between the barrel & the jaw, the better. Adding wood & more padding just gives & is more prone to let the barrel rotate in the vice. This works extremely well & I have unbreeched probably 75 barrels with it with no issues.




One think I will suggest......  If this is a Precarve & it came with the barrel inlet cut, and the inlet not cut flat at the breech end where you can just drop the barrel in.......  You best inlet the Lock Inlet FIRST, so you know how far to set the breech end of the barrel back to accommodate for the vent or vent liner.   If you don't you could end up with the vent hole right in the middle of the breech plug.  
I have built over 40 precarves......  every single one of them had to have the barrel moved back to get the vent liner where I wanted it, including 2 Chambers kits.  Now some guys like the vent hole barely clearing the breechplug face. I want the vent Liner fully in from of the breechplug face & the vent liner & breechplug thread not to intersect.

So some consideration must be made on this Before ya put the barrel in.  Thus I suggest ya do the Lock in 75% of the way, then put the barrel in & find the correct location to suit you.

Building from a blank, you would do the barrel first, then the lock.

Keith Lisle

PS:  If it is a Rice barrel. if will be breeched correctly. I have 100% confidence in them. I have unbreeched over 100 of their barrels & every single one was breeched perfectly & the witness marks were still there to show it.
   That being said, I still unbreech every single barrel I get in, regardless of who made it.  50% of the Colerain barrels I get have to be rebreeched because of the gaps at the breechface.

[mbokie5]

It is a Rice barrel and it's a Chambers kit. I haven't removed the stiffener board from the stock. But it appears to be over 75% finished or more.

The brass plate I have is 1/16th". I think that's thicker than door kicker brass. (?)

I've been doubling the size of my basement bench. I can set up both types of vices. The one you and Ken show seem to be the vice of choice. Mine's only 3.5" though. Is that big enough?


Those pics make it crystal clear.

Now one more rookie question: how much torque are you using to hold the barrel in the vice? I don't expect a number just a ball park sort of guess. I don't want it to rotate and I don 't want to create a constriction or a problem. I already have one barrel with a problem that I created. Not from a kit, though.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Your questions are good ones but they are pretty subjective.  A three inch vise will work, but a 4" is better and a 6" is better yet.  But a 6" vise is a pain for some other jobs where a 4" is perfect.

The brass kick plate I have is .038" thick...it'll work fine, but 1/16" is better, IMO.  All you are doing is preventing the jaw's teeth from scoring the barrel.

How much torque?  Hold it firmly and give the plug a twist.  If it starts to move, back it off, reposition it, and tighten it a little more.  You can squeeze an octagonal barrel pretty hard before squashing it is a problem.

Experience is always the best teacher.   I do - I understand.

[Ken G]

Good answers. 

Ken

[mbokie5]

Keith, Taylor and Ken, I think I have a set up now. I'll try it out and if it works, I'll post a pic. If it doesn't, I'll be back for more advice.

You guys are super to be so patient and helpful.

[Birddog6]

I can tell you from First Hand experience, the small mall vice is not big enough. It may get ya by for a while, but you will eventually score up a barrel.  It just don't have enough a$$.  Go to Lowes, get the 6" Wilton & you Will Not regret it. Cost ? 99-119 bucks.  I have mine 3'6" apart (roughly), the small vice & the 6" Wilton & I use BOTH of them on Every single rifle.





The leather on it just flips back & you can use the steel jaws or shim them with brass & in 5 seconds be back to padded or steel.  

I put the  lock area in the small vice & the muzzle end in the large one & build every rifle in those two vices. Much better (for me) having both ends secured all the time.

Keith Lisle

Note:  Both vices are mounted out off the edge of the work bench so I can get a barrel in the Vertically & not have the bench hinder clamping  the barrel in the vice.

[mbokie5]

Advice I shall heed. It just makes sense. Off to Lowes.

I was still doubting my setup and I think you've nailed the reason why.

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis, that sounds like really craftsmanship. Would you have a pic of that set up?

Sorry, I have been busy and didn't see your request. Here is a photo of a barrel vise that I made.

I stopped by the scrap metal dealer and found some 1 inch X 2 inch Aluminum, I used two carriage bolts and counter sunk them on the back side so the round carriage bolt head fits flush with the underside of the Aluminum. The square shoulder on the carriage bolts will pull into the through holes drilled for the bolts, thereby keeping them from spinning when you tighten down the nuts to hold the barrel in place. I bought the flange nuts/washers from MSC (see this link) http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce/NavigationServlet/Fasteners-Adhesives/Nuts-Washers-O-Rings/Nuts/Flange-Nuts-Spherical-Flange-Nuts/Spherical-Flange-Nuts-Bottom-Washers/_/N-77e5x?cm_re=Category-_-BodyLink-_-Spherical+Flange+Nuts+%26+Bottom+Washers Doubt you really need this type nut but I wanted to also use it on round tapered barrels and the round bottom nuts and matching flange insure alignment with a tapered barrel.

In the middle of the vise I milled a wide vee notch but you could probably cut this with a hack saw if you were careful. Since the vise jaws are Aluminum I don't bother with brass shims. I have never had a barrel slip with this set-up and I have put tremendous pressure on some of them!
Dennis
 

[mbokie5]

Ok, I got it out. Did not touch the top of the tang.

Scuffed well below the top of the tang a bit, but very minor.

There are some filings and maybe some anti seize on the threads.

But step one, now finally accomplished.

Think I'll lay the barrel in and see how it fits.

Thanks for the help gentlemen. 

[Curtis]

mbokie,

Glad you got it out without any real damage.  I can assure you from my experience that Kieth Lisle, Ken Guy, Dennis and Dphariss will never likely run you astray, they will tell it straight up.

Curtis Allinson

[mbokie5]

mbokie,

Glad you got it out without any real damage.  I can assure you from my experience that Kieth Lisle, Ken Guy, Dennis and Dphariss will never likely run you astray, they will tell it straight up.

Curtis Allinson

I must agree.

I did buy the 6" vice and it was a great idea. Once i got my bench doubled in size and bolted the vice on, it was less than 5 minutes getting the plug out.


And that's in spite of my slow plodding ocd attitude about not making a mistake. I know I will make many mistakes. but I'll try to eliminate as many as possible. And I'll be able to do that thanks to the list of gentlemen you named and others on this forum.

 

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

I bought some 1/8" aluminum sheets and made covers for my vise jaws that just hang on top of the vise jaws. Work real well for handling steel parts like barrels. I've always found getting the plug out is much easier than getting it back and lining up the witness marks. That last .0001 or .0002 of a turn can be a bear.

[mbokie5]

I bought some 1/8" aluminum sheets and made covers for my vise jaws that just hang on top of the vise jaws. Work real well for handling steel parts like barrels. I've always found getting the plug out is much easier than getting it back and lining up the witness marks. That last .0001 or .0002 of a turn can be a bear.

There's what I came up with. I don't know why those pics are so small. I hope to improve doing this sort of show and tell. I hope anyway.