Author Topic: Tin for patches  (Read 15432 times)

Offline KNeilson

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Tin for patches
« on: September 21, 2011, 06:28:54 AM »
Ive noticed a lot of people carry pre-cut patches in a small tin in their bag. After using up all the pellets in a tin I had for the air pistol, I was looking at the tin thinking it would make a good container to carry patches in. It had a too modern bright paint job that had to go, so after I burnt that off with the propane torch it looked just too plain and I felt it needed some decoration. Repousse is a metalworking technique where designs are embossed onto thin material by working from the backside. I have been experimenting with this for a while so I gave it a go on the tin. Other than a small fixable crack on the large petal, I am fairly happy with how it looks. If this type of decoration is something that some folks have an interest in I dont mind putting together a small how-to...... have a look...      Kerry
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 10:56:05 PM by rich pierce »

Offline omark west cen colo

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2011, 06:35:03 AM »
thats neat and i would like to see the "how to".   thanks, mark
on the 4th of julypeople should fire their guns into the air to show the government who does have the power,,,b franklin!   on these walks make your gun your constant companion,,,t jefferson!   those that will give up freedom for security deserve neither freedom or security,,,b franklin!   west colo

Offline A.Merrill

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2011, 07:10:21 AM »
    Very nice. Could this be done on a patchbox? Yes, please show the how-to.    AL
Alan K. Merrill

Online Tim Crosby

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2011, 02:56:07 PM »
 Well done, very neat.

 Tim C.

Offline greybeard

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2011, 03:20:49 PM »
I wanna seee tooo. Bob

Offline alyce-james

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2011, 03:32:58 PM »
Kerry; Very nice completed trade item. I think a" how to" would be of great interest to a large share of this membership. Again nice job. Thanks for posting. Jim & Alyce.
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Offline Habu

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2011, 05:19:20 PM »
I've always figured repousse was some sort of black magic.  I'd definitely like to see a "how-to" or tutorial: Halloween is coming after all!

Jim

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2011, 05:41:06 PM »
Fascinating! Please post the how-to.
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Offline Beaverman

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2011, 06:57:22 PM »
That's exquisite, a tutorial would be very much appreciated!

Offline KNeilson

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2011, 02:10:39 AM »
Thx for the replys folks, I will be trying another quite soon and will make sure to document the process. 
Quote
Could this be done on a patchbox?
Al, one of the requirements is a malleable, thin material. I think what most use for a patchbox woukld be a little thick to work easily and produce detail. Some of the things Ive wondered about trying would be for example a silver thumbpiece.  Or a butt cap for a pistol. Thinking about it now, why not something that could be attached (soldered) to a brass part such as a patchbox...  hmmmm  thx for giving the muse a poke..  As far as this one, I fixed the crack by sweating it with soft solder, and added patina by coating with gunblue and scrubbing back with scotchbrite. It looks like this now... I waxed it good but I can see some small bits of rust already, maybe some coating of sorts is in order.. Kerry
   

MikeCooper

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2011, 03:40:00 AM »
Nice,  I like stippling background.   Surprised that you can stretch it out like that without deforming the top so that it wouldn't fit on the tin anymore.   

Offline Habu

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2011, 04:18:06 AM »
Surprised that you can stretch it out like that without deforming the top so that it wouldn't fit on the tin anymore.   

See, that's what makes me think black magic is involved. 

camerl2009

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2011, 04:23:17 AM »
id love to see a how to on this  ;D i carry my patches in a pellet tin too i have stacks of empty tins sitting here(i use a plastic box with dividers for my pellets easyer to see what i have that way  ;) )

Bill

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2011, 06:50:51 AM »
I too can't imagine the depth of the design on such a thin material! Or do Canadian companies use a thicker metal? :) Would absolutely LOVE to see a tutorial on this!

Offline KNeilson

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2011, 07:26:31 AM »
Thx for the comments guys.
Quote
I too can't imagine the depth of the design on such a thin material
  I pushed it on this one, probably why I got a few cracks, however I didnt anneal between steps like I really should have, so I`ll have to try on another to be sure.
I took a short repousse course a few years ago, and one of the first things explained was how the eye looks at such things. When you look at such an object, the first thing you see is the "silouette" or shape.. eg. such as the fleur di lis. You will notice very small discrepancies such as crooked lines, flat spots in scrolls, parralell things not being parralell, lack of symetry etc.. I still have a lot of work to do in this aspect. Second point mentioned was "volume", simply put, how loud is it. In this aspect I did OK on the patch tin, definately you can "see" what it is. imo, with simple shapes can get away with, or need more volume. However this can backfire with more complex designs. Just like loud music can become "noise" beyond a certain point.. btw, the measured depth averages 3/32 in., just appears more          regards.....    Kerry

Offline Habu

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2011, 07:57:43 AM »
btw, the measured depth averages 3/32 in., just appears more       

So in that way, it's like raised carving on a gunstock--part of what makes it effective is the way our expectations how we interpret what our eyes see?  Looking at the first pic, I'd have guessed depths were probably more along the lines of 3/16".

Offline KNeilson

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2011, 08:17:18 AM »
Habu,
Quote
So in that way, it's like raised carving on a gunstock--part of what makes it effective is the way our expectations how we interpret what our eyes see?

I would say thats a good comparison....  heres a level shot with a penny on the side.....  Kerry

Bill

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2011, 04:04:41 PM »
Now that it can be seen from the side, it's even more impressive in my opinion.

Offline Brian

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2011, 12:13:00 AM »
That is really neat!  You did a great job on that.  I also would love to see a tutorial on that sort of work.  Nice design and layout.  Well done!
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Offline KNeilson

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2011, 07:36:28 AM »
Heres the new raw tin I`ll use next to the decorated one.

 This one had stickers as opposed to paint, so all I did is warm it a bit on a stove element and peel the stickers off, finished up by taking the glue residue off with WD40.. Ive thought a bit about how to do this (The tutorial), and I think from here a description of the tools and equipment needed is a good place to start. Anyone that has made small chisels/ punches or done a little heat treating can make them easily, for those that havent, this is a good place to start. Most of them can be made from existing tools that have the heat treatment done already by cautious modification too, I`ll attempt to explain how.. The easiest for me is to provide a link to where you can see commercially available ones to examine shapes and sizes..  
Here we go......

This is a good example of a basic tool set, These are available at http://www.mettleworks.com/sales/thestore.html    or  http://www.repoussetools.com/  or for a decent how to on making them.........    http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/repousse/repousse_tools.php
The next item is your "pitch". This is the real secret of doing the work. The pitch is what supports the material as your working it. So, now that the repousse police are hunting me down for divulging secrets, I might as well talk a bit of what Ive used and tried. For thin, soft non ferrous metals, Ive used rubber and vinyl sheet of varying hardness and thickness. Another is Sculpt Nouveu, Kinda like plasticene but harder. Something called Dum-Dum is yet another Ive tried, altho soft it served the purpose. The older millwrights or those that work with babbit may know this stuff. And the best stuff Ive had yet is red German chasers pitch, but commercially prepared, it is expensive. For those that were in Heffley creek, you may have seen me collecting the tree pitch bleeding out of the pines behind the targets, now you know what I was up too! I have several recipes for making up pitch, you can never have enough.  Once you have obtained the pitch, the next is a container to keep it in and also work off. I use a shallow steel bowl I made, about 12 in dia., and this sits in an inner tube from a wheelbarrow. This way you can rotate/tilt and get the work to the most comfortable position to work in. Very much like an engravers ball. For a hammer, I use a small chasers hammer. They are built for this purpose with a large striking face and bulbous handle. you can use almost any small hammer tho, like a 4-8 oz ball peen. Dont use one too big, its tiring, and your body and work will suffer... enuf for now, I`ll finish with a couple links for books.......   later........Kerry

http://books.google.com/books/about/A_manual_of_practical_instruction_in_the.html?id=DOc3AAAAMAAJ
http://books.google.com/books?id=OkNXNAAACAAJ&dq=Moving+metal&hl=en&ei=ixh8Trz6FIjfiALt-azvDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CEUQ6AEwAA
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 08:30:07 AM by KNeilson »

Offline KNeilson

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2011, 06:23:08 AM »
Boy dont hit the back button after typing for a while!   A few more pics of my tools, actually the first pic is all my repousse tools, a lot more than you need for something like this tin...

A magnifier of sorts helps for those aging eyes, and small items .   The ones I will be using are shown here...

from left to right... a small liner, slightly thicker liner, and three pearls.. followed by...

large and small planishers/flatters, and the stippling tool..
My pitch bowl, see the raw impressions left from working the tin...

Last is an example of "homemade tools ",

On the left, from ground down cheapo center punch and chisel. In the center, fabricated from ball bearings and cheapo centerpunches, on the right, Forged and heat treated W-1..........  in the middle of the last bunch are two I made with no heat treatment and they are still working great after several years... the stippler and a flatter.
I have a busy weekend in the works, but I imagine I`ll have the time to get another post together...   Next time we`ll start the job....  :)   Kerry


« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 06:44:06 AM by KNeilson »

MikeCooper

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2011, 06:01:22 AM »
nice so far, look forward to the rest of it.   What's your recipe for the pitch ? 

Leatherbelly

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2011, 06:49:28 PM »
 Hey Kerry!
  I recognize that type of "key" in the pix! Not the Ford one. Bagger,Dyna, ST,Sporty,whatchoo got?
  You've done some great work here my man!

Offline KNeilson

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2011, 03:01:13 AM »
Gents, thx for the responses..Leatherbelly, one of my oldest passions and my first "new" bike, an 08 road glide...for me, summer sucked for riding this year. Given some of the back issues I had earlier this spring I didnt want to risk a fall. Speaking of summer, from the weather down here now I think its over, ah well, theres always next year.
MikeCooper, Ive tried a few different recipes, but dont have my "own". What your seeing is commercial pitch. I bought it as "chasers pitch" and bought a couple pounds at about 10$ lb. It smells like burnt pine, so I`m assuming its a pine tar base. Some use Asphaltum (roofing tar) but this is bad for you. Most are based of either and mixed with china clay (makes it harder and less tacky) or softened with linseed oil or the like to make it softer. There are those that have "winter" and "summer" mixes. Getting just the right hardness is what you want. Sometimes takes a bit of experimenting, something I`m still working at. Thinking about it, with heat, this stuff reacts very similar to "sealing wax", the stuff you melt on the back off a letter. I did a little more over the weekend, and took pics along the way.
This time I chose a shoe polish tin. The kind with the toogle on the side. After leaving the other tin( pellet tin) alone for a few days the threads corroded and gummed up enough I couldnt get the lid off. After this I dont think threaded lids are a viable idea. Anyways, Starting at pic one, the tin,pattern and tools...btw, I measure the thickness at .006
 from here you melt a bit of pitch into the lid ..
  then attached the pattern, I use a spray on adhesive. when the pattern has stuck, outline all around with a small liner. Use caution, watch for over/under lines..  when finished, you should now have this..
  heat and remove from pitch, clean and re-mount face down onto pitch. I use a hot air paint stripper for heat. Now usin your largest ball faced tool, star to "raise" the interior of the design. Working to smaller as you get to the edges and ends of the pattern. This is a part of the process that can be difficult to get surfaces smooth. The three P`s sure apply here..      
When finished it will appear similar. I`m not entirely happy with my job, a little rushed and broke thru in a couple spots,    :)  Now heat and re-mount on pitch, this time we`ll go all around the outer edges with a "flatter" to straighten them up a bit. Ive just started doing this here    Once everything is straightened out, you "planish", this means smoothing it by going over it with a polished tool using rapid, light blows of the hammer. On this one I decide I wanted to raise the rib a little different so I remounted back on the pitch and lightly put the center vein in.  remounted it yet again and worked the topside to raise the center vein  
  also in this pic you can see where Ive flattened around the edges. I did a fairly rough job, but I had planned to stipple the edges to begin with. This sure hides alot of defects!!- My stippling tool is a single point tool with about a 1/32 radius tip . It in the tool pic I posted
 The last step was to add a patina, I did this with commercial cold gun blue, rubbing back with scotchbrite like the first...    heres the finished tin with the first, still a little work to do but a good way get rid of a few hours. Hope this gets the general idea across about the process..  just starting at this myself really, but I can see neat stuff in the future.    Kerry
Patch tins 1+2...
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 08:30:12 AM by KNeilson »

Offline b bogart

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Re: Tin for patches
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2011, 09:06:02 PM »
This will end up in the Tutorials won't it? Please! Very nice work and extremely inforrmative post. Thank you Kerry!