Author Topic: TN rifle for your review and comments  (Read 22581 times)

Offline Dennis Glazener

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TN rifle for your review and comments
« on: October 03, 2011, 07:27:59 PM »
Another rifle sent in by ALR member Jim McKenzie for your review and comments.
Here is what Jim had to say about this rifle:
 
Quote
This gun is 60 inches overall with a 44 1/2 inch barrel. The stock is maple . It was broken through the wrist and repaired. The barrel has been cut back. The nose cap is made of pewter.  The rear ram rod pipe is different  than you normally see. 

Nice rifle with some interesting features.
Dennis











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flintman-tx

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2011, 08:27:26 PM »
Lovely gun !

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2011, 08:28:54 PM »
Its got a 44 1/2" barrel as is now? Judging by the placement of the last thimble there at the nose there is alot of barrel missing...that must have been one loooong rifle.
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Offline alyce-james

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2011, 11:01:28 PM »
Interesting example of this style rifle. Pleasing wood and color for me. I would like to see the toe plate and tang on this rifle. As Dennis points out, very interesting features. Thanks, Jim
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 11:04:22 PM by alyce-james »
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Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2011, 11:55:09 PM »
I have a rifle that is almost an exact duplicte of this rifle and obviously made by the same preson.  43 inch .40 cal barrel, 58 inch overall length. Also with a repaired wrist- beautiful workmanship- check out the triggers!  I got this rifle from Steve Davis who said it was the rifle that inspired him most.  It was originally purchased from a family in the mid 1970s in east Tennessee, near Maryville.

http://s678.photobucket.com/albums/vv150/sequatchie/Maryville%20Tn%20Rifle/


« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 11:57:06 PM by Sequatchie Rifle »
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Offline jdm

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2011, 04:09:34 AM »
There are quite a few similarity's. If not the same maker I bet they new each other. Both rifles made by a fine craftsman.
 I will send you a P.M.    JIM
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eagle24

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2011, 05:35:12 PM »
The patchbox lid running out into the buttplate is interesting.  Can you get a closeup of that Dennis?  I'd like to see the release mechanism.

Offline G-Man

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2011, 09:45:53 PM »
What neat rifle!  Very different from an upper East Tennessee rifle -  if it is from the Maryville area, I guess that could make sense.  It also bears very strong similarities to the Robert Hughes (Haywood Co. North Carolina) or associate attributed longrifle in Bill Ivey's' book shown below.  Note the architecture, triggerguard, buttplate and sideplate.

http://www.northcarolinalongrifles.com/images/appalachianlg.jpg
 
So perhaps a Smoky Mountain region rifle, just not sure which side of the border.

Really looks to be in excellent condition - inlclucing the original flint lock plate.  Shot a heck of a lot after it was converted, but obviously taken care of. 

Great little rifle - thanks for posting

Guy

Offline jdm

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2011, 03:20:57 AM »
G-Man I think your on to something. Thanks for the post. Sequatchie's rifle ,mine and the on in Bill Ivey's book  look like they could be from the same hand.  JIM
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Offline WElliott

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2011, 05:46:44 AM »
Good eye, Guy.  As usual I find myself in agreement with your assessment.  The distinctive sideplate, trigger guard and architecture are surely related to the rifle associated with Robert Hughes of Haywood County, NC (rifle 197 in Bill Ivey's book).  I don't recall seeing that sideplate on a TN rifle, but stand ready to be corrected.  Bill Ivey writes that he cannot positively attribute that rifle to Hughes, but Bill's conjecture is more reliable than just about anyone else's opinion on NC rifles.  So I would agree with Guy that this is "Appalachian" school, made either side of the NC/TN border.  A very pleasing rifle.  Thanks for posting.
Wayne Elliott

Offline G-Man

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2011, 03:24:55 PM »
The architecture on these 3 guns is very striking - very short compact wrist sections between the comb and the lock panels.  Whoever made them, these are really nice examples that capture that "something" that a lot of us love about these mountain rifles and that today's builders strive build into their work. 

Guy

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2011, 09:49:19 PM »
Jim sent me these photos to post. Hope they help.

Dennis











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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2011, 12:01:14 AM »
[Very different from an upper East Tennessee rifle -  if it is from the Maryville area, I guess that could make sense.  It also bears very strong similarities to the Robert Hughes (Haywood Co. North Carolina) or associate attributed longrifle in Bill Ivey's' book shown below.  Note the architecture, triggerguard, buttplate and sideplate.]

I admit to not having seen many Robert Hughes rifles but I don't remember the front triggers on his rifles having the TN "base" like this rifle and also the one in Ivey's book. Plus the overall lines look better than on the Hughes rifles that I have see.  I can't help but wonder if both the rifles are by someone other than Hughes.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Collector

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2011, 08:49:05 AM »
Dennis,  

These rifles (all of them) certainly deserve more attention and study, then they are getting.  

How was the Robert Hughe's attribution/association made on the rifle presented from the Ivey collection?  Obviously, Mr. Ivey is a respected authority, but curious as to the premise/foundation that formed the basis of  that conclusion, at that time.


I admit to not having seen many Robert Hughes rifles but I don't remember the front triggers on his rifles having the TN "base" like this rifle and also the one in Ivey's book. Plus the overall lines look better than on the Hughes rifles that I have see.  I can't help but wonder if both the rifles are by someone other than Hughes.
Dennis


I take it Dennis, from your observation/statement, that the current Robert Hughe's attribution to the Ivey longrifle, may very well be subject to serious contest.    

Are there any other detailed  photographs available (anywhere) on the Hughe's attributed/associated longrifle, i.e. the tang, toe plate, front and rear sights, trigger guard, ramrod pipes and the iron hardware 'fixture,'  under the cheek piece?   It's difficult to do any real comparisons, without, at least, those.

And lastly, for the time being, is the end of stock missing at the muzzle?  Appears so, but hard to detect.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 05:51:05 AM by Collector »

Offline G-Man

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2011, 03:01:31 PM »
Not claiming it's a Hughes or not - just that whoever made the gun shown here seems to be the same maker as the gun in the Ivey book  I am not familiar enough with Hughes' work -  other than that of the 4 pieces I have seen attributed to him in the Bivins and Ivey books, each is very different.  However, the three pieces we are discussing here seem to make a pretty solid stylistic group, and appear to be the same hand. If they are all 3 by the same maker they make a wonderful study of the variations and similarities you might see from one shop.

I am comfortable that this is not an upper East Tennessee rifle - i.e. in the sense of that region up closer to near where TN, VA and NC meet - Washington, Unicoi, Sullivan, etc. - where the Beans and Beals worked.  So an origin in the Maryville area or surrounding area - near present day Great Smoky Mountain NP - in either Tennessee or North Carolina, makes sense.  The hardware is almost taking on sort of Soddy Daisey feel in its construction, but is different in outline.

Guy

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2011, 08:19:02 PM »
I certainly am no expert on Robert Hughes work. The only photos that I know of are the ones in Bivins and Ivey's books. I have seen one rifle in person and it looked much like the one in Bivins book.
Dennis
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 03:47:58 AM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline jdm

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2011, 12:28:15 AM »
Thank You everyone for your comments and thanks to Dennis for posting the pictures for me.  When I first got the rifle I talked with Jerry Noble about it . His feeling was that it was made around Washington- Unicoi area.  He did not hazarded a guess on possible maker.  My knowledge of southern made guns is very limited.  The Hughes rifles (not counting the one attribution ) look quite a bit different than the three we are comparing. I wonder what  Mr. Bivins made his attribution on?  I know he is one of the best when it comes to North Carolina guns.  I'm not disagreeing with him , just wondering.  Also someone asked about the patch box release.There is none it works by a spring.   JIM
JIM

Offline crawdad

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2011, 05:40:38 PM »
Is it the natural movement west from North Carolina to Tennessee? In William Ivey’s excellent book I believe you can see a developing Tennessee within the early North Carolina rifles more specifically the shape of the butt stock. Specifically the rifles from the Catawba Valley and Bear Creek schools, No?  Is there a sharp dividing line between the Kentucky and Tennessee borders showing the Northern (Pennsylvania/Virginia) and Southern (North Carolina) influences as those influences move westward? 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 05:50:13 PM by crawdad »

Offline G-Man

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2011, 05:59:32 PM »
There was a lot of influence coming in from Virginia  as well, with a strong cultural influence that came in via (and shared with) SW Virginia.  Actually, there were many routes into the region, ancient native paths followed first by traders then settlers.  So I don't think a clean east to west progression can be assumed - the mountains were sort of an impediment to that.  However, I do think that the influence of early western piedmont North Carolina gunmaking on the later iron mounted pieces made in the mountains is something that has just begun to be really looked at.  Conversely, the possible influence of the mountain rifles on adjacent areas  - like the extrem western piedmont/foothill region of NC or the Cumberland Plateau of Tennessee - is something that should not be discounted either.
 
With regard to the later "mountain" rifles, I believe that those made in western North Carolina were evolving more or less contemporaneously with the ones made over the hill in East Tennessee - that is, I don't think the North Carolina mountain rifle styles preceded the east Tennesse styles, just each followed their own evolution.  It is highly likely that settlers in the high mountain areas of the Smokies, and native Cherokees, traveled back and forth and spread style elements around the region, on both sides of the estate line.  So we see some common shared features - patchbox styles, etc.   

The rifle shown in the photos is such a neat example - wherever it was made- some relatively definitive features that make it instantly recognizable as to the general region, but some unique quirks that make it real interesting.

Of course, I could be wrong on all fronts....there is so much we don't know about these guns.

Guy
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 06:07:51 PM by G-Man »

Offline crawdad

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2011, 06:07:48 PM »
Thanks Guy for that information, extremely interesting.  :)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 06:08:58 PM by crawdad »

Offline Collector

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2011, 11:33:39 PM »
Are there any other detailed  photographs available (anywhere) on the Hughe's attributed/associated longrifle, i.e. the tang, toe plate, front and rear sights, trigger guard, ramrod pipes and the iron hardware 'fixture,'  under the cheek piece?

Ref:  http://www.northcarolinalongrifles.com/images/appalachianlg.jpg

In the hopes of soliciting further responses and/or scanned digital photographs, I'll rephrase my original question: 

For those of you that have purchased Mr. Ivey's book, are more photographs present and/or presented, in the book, of the Robert Hughe's "attributed/associated" longrifle and 'link,' referenced in G-Man's post of 10, October? 

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2011, 11:50:17 PM »
Quote
Is it the natural movement west from North Carolina to Tennessee?
Yes it was in 1771 after the battle of Alamance where Colonial Gov Tryon defeated and threatened members of the Regulator movement, many of the former Regulator members fled (Tryon threatened them with treason against the Crown) to what became the state of TN. Also many NC men that fought during the Rev War were given land claims in TN for their service during the war
Quote
LAND-RELATED RECORDS
In order to fulfill a recruiting promise made by the state to soldiers enlisting in the regular army (Continental Line) during the Revolutionary War, North Carolina set aside a large tract of land in what subsequently became Davidson and Sumner counties, in Tennessee [admitted as the 16th state June 1, 1796]. After the war, and until as late as 1841, North Carolina issued more than 6,500 warrants for grants of bounty lands; until 1797 the grants were made by North Carolina, but after 1800 the grants were made by Tennessee. The North Carolina State Archives does not have any bounty land grant records for dates beyond 1797.

To my knowledge all military land grants from the state of NC was for land that later became TN.
Dennis
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 11:55:06 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline jdm

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2011, 12:56:14 AM »


 

For those of you that have purchased Mr. Ivey's book, are more photographs present and/or presented, in the book, of the Robert Hughe's "attributed/associated" longrifle and 'link,' referenced in G-Man's post of 10, October? 
[/quote] 
Collector,  I believe there are three or four other Robert Hughe's longrifles pictured in the book. onely one unsigned attributed rifle with this kind of arcitecture.
JIM

Offline Howard

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2011, 03:02:51 AM »
Jim, I like the rifle. Very nice, good clean lines, & it don't look like it has been boogered with.

Offline Collector

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Re: TN rifle for your review and comments
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2011, 06:27:50 AM »
jdm,  Thanks for your response.

I'm going to have to call and order Mr. Ivey's book, but this particular Robert Hughe's attributed/associated longrifle has sparked an intense reaction in that portion of (the) my brain that scientists normally attribute to male responses to female sexuality.  

THERE... I'VE SAID IT!!  

No sense denying it... I love American longrifles, especially if they are well proportioned, slender and SEXY!!  What's more, I prefer them if they are older than I am!!  (I think my mother always suspected as much...  :o ... when she found those muzzleloader magazines in my desk drawer, under my school work...  ;D )

Man, do I ever feel better...  ;)  

  
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 11:38:00 PM by Collector »