Clean Old Rifles v. Dirty ones (Patina)

[Feltwad]

Feltwad it is hard to believe that is the same gun.  That is an awesome change.  Did you do the bores too?  I am sure if it could talk the first words would be THANK YOU!

Yes Steve I did lap the bores of the barrels ,depending on the climate you will find that most smooth bore barrels are dirty with a few foreign body's such has spider webs  and such ,90% clean up OK .
Restoration comes in three types  Good , Fair, and Poor .The good ones do not need any work to them most  are cased and remain in pristine condition .The fair ones are where restoration is carried to far such has removing dents in the stock   ,checkering re cut nothing feels worse than crisp checkering on a 150year gun.It is this type that the golden rule applies {If in doubt leave it alone]
The poor ones are like the one Early in this thread.
Feltwad

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Has anyone tried Kramer's Best Antique Improver or Antique Cleaner?  http://www.kramerize.com/   ---- http://www.kramerize.com/pdf/MilitarySurplusRifle.pdf

I read some interesting threads on other sites dealing with suppository guns that it has worked very well on antiques without removing finish.  seems to work well on metal and wood. I use it on furniture and fixtures and as an annual preservative on my guns.  I think it is terrific. It has a turpentine base and is made from some very old recipe.

I am interested in hearing others experience, especially with antique guns.

[longrifle]

I have used Kramers on several older guns. The oldest gun that used it on was a Civil War musket and then a couple of late 1800's shotguns wtih good results with no harm to the wood or metal finish. I don't know if I would use it on something older like a long rifle or not. I think that would be up to the owners personal choice. By the way Feltwad that is a good clean up on that old gun it look's nice.

[dannybb55]

How many of you have watched the Antiques Roadshow and seen one of the Keno brothers appraise an 18th century piece of furniture.  I can't say how many times I've seen them say that the piece is wonderful and by a rare maker, and if it hadn't been cleaned it would have been worth x number of dollars, BUT, because it had been skinned/polished/cleaned, it was only worth about half that amount.  I suppose if your dealing with a rifle of lower value, cleaning it isn't a big deal, but if your buying a higher dollar golden age rifle, and your paying premium money for it, why would you damage the value?  It's like taking $30,000.00 or so and then throwing $15,000.00 of in the trash, who would do that?  I suppose if you don't care about the value, then go for it, other wise, I would tread very lightly.

Frank

At least oil the bore and lock internals. There is nothing like an old machine rusting up to kill its value.

[Fullstock longrifle]

How many of you have watched the Antiques Roadshow and seen one of the Keno brothers appraise an 18th century piece of furniture.  I can't say how many times I've seen them say that the piece is wonderful and by a rare maker, and if it hadn't been cleaned it would have been worth x number of dollars, BUT, because it had been skinned/polished/cleaned, it was only worth about half that amount.  I suppose if your dealing with a rifle of lower value, cleaning it isn't a big deal, but if your buying a higher dollar golden age rifle, and your paying premium money for it, why would you damage the value?  It's like taking $30,000.00 or so and then throwing $15,000.00 of in the trash, who would do that?  I suppose if you don't care about the value, then go for it, other wise, I would tread very lightly.

Frank

At least oil the bore and lock internals. There is nothing like an old machine rusting up to kill its value.

I agree with a light cleaning and oiling of the internals of the lock.  I also think feltwad did a nice job with his shotgun, but again, the shotgun didn't have a lot of value and he didn't over clean it, the work was nicely done.

Frank

[Dphariss]

 At least oil the bore and lock internals. There is nothing like an old machine rusting up to kill its value.

You need to  find a different drum to beat. This one is out of tune.
People have repeatedly pointed out that there is difference between cleaning that often damages the gun and preservation to stop deterioration, this distinction seems to lost to you. They can can be radically different things if done improperly, preservation can actually produce deterioration. What if removing the lock causes more damage than the oiling can prevent? Then what?
Lots of old guns have been seriously damaged by idiots with cans of oil. Petroleum oils, something like 3 in 1 for example (and probably other things as well), causes a kind of wood rot if allowed to soak into the wood by over oiling. Black streaks in walnut. It takes time in many cases 10-20 years maybe 40. But time is what we are talking about with old guns, time.  Stored muzzle up even light coat of oil in a bore can run out the vent/nipple and into the stock. So we preserve the bore and seriously damage the wood? In a Kentucky toe WOOD is the important part, its more important than the bore, though the bore is also of interest to me. So after oiling rifles should be stored muzzle down for a day to let the oil  run out the muzzle. People would be surprised how much oil runs out if they check.

So ALL such things need to be done minimally if at all.  There is often a fine line between preservation and long term damage that might crop up long after the perpetrator has traded the gun off or died of old age. But the gun is still damaged.

Dan

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Dan,

Why don't you pull together  a bunch of your posts and write a pamphlet:  "Do's and Don'ts of Cleaning and preserving Antique and Contemporary American Longrifles".   

Perhaps a second one :  "Finishing and refinishing the American Longrifle"


Now............. you may think I am being facetious, but I am not. 

If you wrote such a tome............. I mean you must have several thousands of words on the subject on this forum alone you could copy and paste a first draft from what you have already written on the web.....   ........... I bet it would sell!!

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

Thanks tim:
Perhaps little know to most members is a section in the ALR Library , "Previous links to ALR subjects"

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2955.0

where we have indexed "gunmaker" and "subjects of interest" threads. We will add this one as well. Anyone wishing to "summarize" this information is welcome to do so.

The Museum Committee

[Robert Wolfe]

Hurricane - that link should be a sticky out in the open somewhere.

[doug]

     For me it depends on the type of gun, as to how far I will clean or alter an antique.  Personally I like to look at damascus barrels and if a rifle or shotgun has a damascus barrel(s) but is tarnished and rusted to the point where the pattern is no longer visible, I refinish it to bring out the pattern.  I think that barrels were commonly refinished in Europe in the good old days.  Also my guns are not museum pieces, they are for me to shoot and I want them in good condition.  I also think it takes a lot of wet weather and rough handling before a gun gets to the dark brown and no pattern stage. 



    The contrary aspect of what I have written is that for american guns I would rarely refinish the barrels and only then if the barrel(s) was / were in pretty rough condition.  My logic being that long rifles and hawken rifles and so forth probably did not stay bright very long but fairly quickly developed a brown patina to the barrel

cheers Doug