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| | |-+  Scratch-built locks
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Author Topic: Scratch-built locks  (Read 12557 times)
Bob Roller
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« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2011, 08:13:22 AM »

Close tolerances and properly preloaded springs are the heart of a gun lock. On the Twigg locks I am making,I use a #35 reamer for the sear pin hole which is .110 and a pin diameter of .1094 plus no more than .002 overtravel at fully cocked. It's just as easy to do this as it is to mess it up beyond all hope of repair.

Bob Roller
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dannybb55
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« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2011, 09:26:24 PM »

I am going to forge a cock to this step and have some forging fun.
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James Wilson Everett
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« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2011, 08:21:27 AM »

Danny,

Forging a cock is both fun and challenging.  The challenge I found was in making the "second" bend.  The first bend is the one just below the lower jaw and is easy to do.  The second bend brings the iron back to where the tumbler screw hole will be located.  The challenge is that when you try the second bend, the first bend will straighten out!!  I use a jig made from two separate rectangular steel blocks with 1/4 inch diameter pins protruding by about 1.5 inch.  You can clamp the blocks in a big post vise so the pins are as close, or as far apart as required by just adjusting the relative position of the blocks in the vise.

After the second bend is when you flatten/widen the tumbler hole area and at the same time form the step.  If you use wrought iron, be sure to make this end a good bit longer than required as wrought iron will tend to split at the end during the flatten/widen forging.  Later you cut the split end off to bring the cock to the correct size.

If this does not make sense, let me know & I can post some photos.

Jim Everett
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AeroE
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« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2011, 11:42:30 AM »

Sir, I understand, but I would like to see a couple of photos anyway.

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Lee Lawson
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« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2011, 01:07:39 PM »

Just a note: it takes a lot of work to gather and post photos; if you don't have the requested shots, especially if you have to go light the forge and get someone good with a camera to take pictures.

It is really great to have all this information on the web. Virtual apprenticing to a master, twenty first century style.

Tom

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Tom Curran's web site : http://tcurran.com/
James Wilson Everett
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« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2011, 02:54:02 PM »

Guys,

I am not lighting the forge, but these photos should show how the jig is used for the challenging job of forging a flint cock.  Just pretend that the iron is orange hot and the sweat is dripping in your eyes.  Never forge wrought iron red - keep it at least orange hot.

Here are two photos of the bending jig blocks.  The pins are 1/4 inch diameter and are threaded into the blocks.


Here are two photos of forged cocks.  I rough finish the lower jaw & thumb piece before doing the second bend.  Notice the split ends at the bottom of one of the cocks, very typical of wrought iron forgings, but rare in steel.


Here are photos of the "hot" cock being forged in the jig blocks.  The blocks would be held in a big post vice and the distance between the pins adjusted to make the gunsmith happy.  I use a Siler cock as a gauge to set the distance.





When making a hot bend in wrought iron it is better to tap the hot metal on the exterior of the bend to form it around the pin rather than pulling it around like a lever.  When you pull the iron around a bend as is often done with steel, the wrought iron grain can open up and ruin the piece.  When the tumbler hole area is forged to widen/flatten, the piece will pass from the jig to the anvil, back to the jig then to the anvil, et cetera until the gunsmith is happy.  This is not a simple one shot deal.

Jim Everett
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Robby
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« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2011, 06:14:10 PM »

Mr. Everett,
                   Forging metal is very interesting to me. Watching someone that knows what they are doing, and trying to anticipate their next move is fascinating. I am usually wrong! I may never do this, but then, I'm doing a lot of things I thought I would (could) never do. I just picked up some nineteenth century real wrought iron, so who knows. Thank you for taking the time to do this.
Robby
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molon labe
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AeroE
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« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2011, 07:39:26 PM »


Thanks.


Acer,

I have complete understanding of the work involved in writing and posting tutorials.  Also the aggravation that comes when they are overlooked and unnecessary questions are asked time and again.
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Lee Lawson
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« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2011, 08:58:57 PM »

Jim, I am amazed at you near net-shape forging. I think in an ideal world, that's how it would be. But I know if I tried this, I'd be filing and sawing all the lumps off. Great work.
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dannybb55
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« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2011, 10:37:34 PM »

Jim, Thanks, I had it figgered that you used a 1/4 in round nosed fuller to fuller the curves in,bending forks work well too. I will give it a shot this weekend and copy an old english lock cock in cheap steel this weekend, and try to get some pictures.
                              Danny
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dannybb55
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« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2011, 05:31:34 AM »

Jim, Here is a link to the lock that I want to build a trade gun around, circa 1600s: http://briangodwin.co.uk/images/Type1/11%20Chirk-Dunster%20in.jpg It seems more anvil time and less vice time was invested in these locks. TRS has the castings for something similar but not the plate and of course they aren't iron. When you use the Siler as a model, are you more concerned with geometry or shape?
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James Wilson Everett
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« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2011, 08:36:28 AM »

Danny,

Good luck on the 1600's lock!  The link shows these really early ones that I am sure will be a great challenge.  Yes, I "cheat" by using the large Siler as a model.  Certainly for geometry and much less so for shape. 

Specifically - I use the Siler lock plate to position the holes for the parts.  When I make a detachable pan lock I use an old Siler plate that I have removed the small block on the pan interior to give a smooth inner surface.  After the iron plate is roughly smooth on inside/outside I "glue" the Siler plate to it using Elmers glue.  Then I can locate punch the mounting holes using the Siler holes as a guide and I can shape the outside by filing to the Siler outside (if I wish - or not).  Look at the 2 locks posted on 14 November and you can see the result.

For a lock with a forge welded pan I use a Siler plate that has the pan area cut away more to fit around the pan on the iron plate.

Oh yes - some hot water and the Elmers glue releases after you are done..

The holes that I do not use the Siler plate for are the pin holes for the mainspring and for the frizzen spring.  I do punch these locations, but I drill the holes after the springs are finished - I just find this easier for the spring making.

After this the geometry is set and set correctly.  Then the shape of the lock can be either a flat German, flat English, rounded English or whatever you wish.

Jim Everett
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dannybb55
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« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2011, 09:00:36 PM »

Did you notice on some of these English locks how many mainspring holes are jumbled together on the plate? The smith made the spring and then drilled his hole, Nice technique.
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camerl2009
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« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2011, 10:32:11 PM »

hmm id love to see some video of this  Grin alot of your process seems to match hand forging the muzzleloading gun lock book but i do like your jig a little better for making the cock  what are you making the frizzen out  Huh
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James Wilson Everett
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« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2011, 07:10:08 AM »

Guys,

I have made the frizzens from a variety of materials.  It is boring to do the same thing every time.  In truth, I like to get experience by trying different methods that were used 250 years ago.

Specifically I have forged frizzens in three ways.

1. Case hardened wrought iron.  This is the most difficult because even after you forge and finish the frizzen, it must be hardened.  I use 1/3 bone charcoal, 1/3 leather charcoal, 1/3 hardwood charcoal.  The soft frizzen is covered in the charcoal, put in a small metal pot - I use an old lead melting pot with a flat metal plate lid.  Next the pot is heated orange in a forge for several hours.  This is boring so I try to have some other hot job to do during this time.  I take the frizzen out of the charcoal, reheat to orange and quench in brine.  I have no idea how deep hardened surface is, but the frizzens last a long time.

2.  Sole plate frizzen.  Here the wrought iron frizzen remains soft and a thin plate of steel is riveted to the face.  I use 1095 and three iron rivets, then the whole thing is hardened.  The drawback to this method is when the frizzen is quenched the sole plate tends to warp giving a tiny gap in places between the iron frizzen and the sole plate.  I have not found a solution.  I know of other gunsmiths who solder the sole plate on, but this would seem to me that the sole plate is softened in the process.

3.  Forge the entire frizzen out of 1095, finish and harden.  This way seems to be the best.

Jim Everett
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