Author Topic: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol  (Read 45368 times)

Offline runastav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« on: January 21, 2012, 12:22:05 AM »
Hi Guys!
My next build is a Duellpistol, walnutstock, Green M barrel cal 45 and Blackley Manton lock. The barrel is 12", cut to 10" rest 2" Hmmm Deringer ;D
Runar





Offline Cory Joe Stewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1862
    • My etsy shop
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2012, 12:32:11 AM »
Yeaaahhhhh.  This is going to be fun to watch.  Thanks Runastav.

Coryjoe

Offline smallpatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4107
  • Dane Lund
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2012, 01:03:23 AM »
Run,

What are you going to use for a trigger.  I guess as a dueler, it would not be a set trigger?? 

I've been trying really hard to find a pistol set trigger, so far, the only one's out there are from Pedersoli, and they want $350.  NOT GONNA HAPPEN!!!

It's going to be a beauty.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7908
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2012, 02:12:05 AM »
As usual we all will be looking forward to your progress. It looks as though you have a nice start already.   Smylee

Offline Eric Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 775
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2012, 03:40:02 PM »
Are there any books on Dueling pistol details, with pictures and specs on originals?
Eric Smith

Offline elk killer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1514
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2012, 05:46:43 PM »
Georgian Pistols by Norm Dixon,, has lots of details,
if you can find it,,
The English Pistol, A Pictorial Study,, also has good details
only flintlocks remain interesting..

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2012, 07:50:46 PM »
Duelling pistols have simple triggers,  Target pistols might have set triggers.  Perhaps Muzzleloader Builders Supply has a set trigger.   I bought as good one from them for my Virginia rifle.
Runestav is capable of making a single set trigger.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

blunderbuss

  • Guest
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2012, 08:03:10 PM »
 

  I've heard references of duelling pistols having set triggers. Maybe not the norm. Single set I'm sure.

Making the first one is hard enough the second is more difficult as one has to match the first one

Offline Rolf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1764
  • There's more than one way to skin a cat.
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2012, 09:10:40 PM »
I've bought set trigger castings from Blackley that were taken from a original Wogden dueller.
Haven't had time to try and assemble it jet. I was surprised how thin the mainspring is. I would have thought it was to to weak to fire a lock.

Best regard
Rolf


blunderbuss

  • Guest
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2012, 09:15:26 PM »


I can say I bought a set of castings once for a wheelock, won't say where, but other than a tinplate it was worthless. I ended up remaking almost every piece

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2012, 10:01:45 PM »
Hi,
Most best quality and fully evolved English dueling pistols had set triggers, which were called "hair" triggers by many at the time.  John George has a nice diagram of a typical pistol set trigger in his book on English pistols and revolvers.  Rolf's set from Blackley's is similar to that drawing.  I had the privilege of handling dueling pistols by Innes, Joe Manton, and a third maker (I don't remember the name).  All had hair triggers and were of the late flintlock, half-stocked styling similar to Runastav's project.  Without exception they were exquisitely made.  They all had heavy barrels that were almost straight and were horribly unbalanced.  Indeed, the Manton pistol was the worst, and I greatly disliked the feel of it.  When I built a pair, I chose a pair of 1780s Wogdon's as my models.  For my tastes, they make the the later heavier dueling pistols feel like hockey sticks in comparison.  In my opinion, the early and mid-career fullstocked pistols of Wogdon, Twigg, and John Manton are the best of the best of the best with respect to appearance, feel, and handling.  Of course, I am biased because I like lighter pistols and I have relatively small hands.  Someone with large hands may prefer the heavier style.  I did not not include hair triggers in my pistols because the pull was crisp and light without the set mechanism and makers sometimes did not include them on the earlier dueling pistols.

dave 
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

blunderbuss

  • Guest
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2012, 10:28:53 PM »
 

  Duelling pistols were made with a heavy barrel for a reason When most people  snap shoot and miss it's because they tend to shoot high as in warefare, hunting,and self defence.  Duelling was no exception. So duelling pistols were made with heavy barrels to try and compensate in pulling the shooters arm down, in fact it didn't work as well as intended so the makers bored the barrels to shoot even lower.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2012, 11:43:30 PM »
Hi Blunderbuss,
The first English pistols designed for the purpose of dueling evolved during the 1760s.  Dueling pistols were made well into the 1840s and during that 80-year history, the fashions and styles changed.  I am aware of the purpose of the heavy barrel.  Joe Manton was a main player promoting that fashion.  However, the heavy barrels were also introduced at a time when dueling pistols were evolving away from snap shooting tools for defending your honor and into target guns.  Pistol shooting at targets became a great fashion in London during the early 19th century and the heavy pistols were a reaction to that trend.  Some, including Mantons, were rifled.  According to Rigby's essay on pistols published during the early 19th century, pistol makers starting in the 1780's (long before the heavy barrel fashion) used various strategies for shaping and boring barrels to prevent high shots.  Supposedly, Wogdon bent his barrels to achieve that objective at a range of 20 paces.

dave
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 12:26:42 AM by smart dog »
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

blunderbuss

  • Guest
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2012, 12:32:59 AM »
 The last duellers I made were saw handled 1" across the flats 10" and .50 cal. percussion smoothbore I posted them awhile back I'll put them up again if you'd like.

They shot real well muzzle heavy like you said but accurate on a large target out to 50 yards
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 12:56:55 AM by blunderbuss »

Offline runastav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2012, 11:31:43 AM »
Good morning, and thank you all!
I see no point in a set trigger, the Mantonlock is very small and I think it vill work like a clock ;) Ok, the GM barrel 7/8" cut to 223mm(8-3/4") and I must make a Patent Breech whith 5/8x18" treadhs and the lenght vill be 9-1/2" inkluded the Breechplug. As you see I use  photos from a old HEGE catalog 1986 as a backup! Next step is the hook.
Runar

















Offline alyce-james

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 909
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2012, 06:29:27 PM »
Good day to ya Runar; Thanks for sharing your new project with us. Looking foreward to completing each step of the build with you. Great pictures. I have always been a fan of English duelling pistols. My favorite maker is H. W. Mortimer. (1775-1811) It would be nice if there was a supplier of Duelling style locks with safety. Not enough demand I would guess. Thanks, AJ
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 06:38:29 PM by alyce-james »
"Candy is Dandy but Liquor is Quicker". by Poet Ogden Nash 1931.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2012, 09:08:31 PM »
Hi Runar,
I guarantee you will not need a set trigger for those locks nor will you need a spring to keep the trigger bar firmly against the sear at full cock, half cock, and at rest.  Good luck with the project. 

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline runastav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2012, 08:47:51 PM »
Thank you guys!
Next is the standing breech. And the barrel inletted in stock, forend is blackwood.
Runar





Template for the lug









Offline Chris Treichel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 916
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2012, 11:42:41 PM »
wow, nice pictures... I like your idea of pasting the picture full size to your stock wood...

First thing I buy when I put my shop together is going to be a lathe or a mill.  I am impressed with the things you gents are making.

The other DWS

  • Guest
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2012, 10:42:37 PM »
At one point according to the formalized and accepted dueling codes, were not set or hair triggers and rifled barrels considered improper?   seems I had a book on that here somewhere, but can't locate it at the moment

  I seem to recall "issues" over the Hamilton-Burr pistol set over one or the other.  Even as dueling went out of fashion (at different time in different areas) cased pistols were still popular accoutrements of a "proper" gentleman.  I suspect that is is these later pistols that evolved away from actual pistols specifically built to match the dueling codes into the heavy barrel target and general defense pistols.

of course this may just be nit-picking over semantics,  Two guys can fight each other over anything with anything, from shotguns to broadaxes---and probably have

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9691
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2012, 11:12:54 PM »
Not all single set triggers are readily noticeable because some of English ake kad no external adjustment screw to identify them as a set trigger. I have a single set trigger,English from a Fenton pistol that was destroyed in the 1940 air raids over London. It has no external adjustment and can only be adjusted by the tightening or loosening of a very strong sear spring. I once heard Paul Harvey talk about the Burr-Hamilton duel and he mentioned a "hidden hair trigger"that caused Hamltons pistol to fire prematurely. Lynton McKenzie gave me this trigger with the original guard still attached sometime in the early 1980's and I used it as pattern for new ones.
I have a book that talks about the "Death of Gentlemen"by dueling and it is in a book called The American Gun.

Bob Roller

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2012, 11:46:26 PM »
Hi,
Joseph Hamilton makes no mention of any prohibition on hair triggers, rifling, sights etc. in his 1829 book, "The Duelling Handbook".  The majority of true duelling pistols that I've handled or seen have set or hair triggers and front and rear sights.  Several of the best makers, including John and Joe Manton, made some pistols with shallow rifling that was not visible at the muzzle.  Perhaps, there were some informal gentlemen's rules about those things but the best makers knew their customers probably didn't care even if those rules ever really existed.  Most hair triggers had a visible set screw but some makers devised set triggers that were hidden, often with the trigger pull permanently set by the gunsmith.  The pistols used in the Hamilton-Burr duel were made by Wogdon.  They don't have obvious set screws so they may have hidden set triggers.

dave         
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline runastav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2012, 08:30:37 PM »
Thank you guys!
And now its time for assembling the lock. It came from Blackley in a plastik bag. No drawings, screws,frizzen roller,hammer safety spring but all vas nice done.
I began with tre frizzen, and use old dentist  burrs for me it work better then a senter punch and I alvays pilotdrill 1,5mm hole. Screws is 3mm.
Runar



















Offline runastav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2012, 01:27:43 PM »
Hi Folks!
Lockplate pilotdrilled 1,5mm, bridle, tumbler and sear in place :)
Runar











I use maskingtape on the hammer, it leave imprint for filing the square hole yes I know can use soft solder ;)







Offline Keb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1193
  • south Ohio
Re: Building a Flintlock Duell Pistol
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2012, 03:52:08 PM »
Nice.