Author Topic: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?  (Read 15098 times)

Martin_G

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Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« on: March 06, 2012, 09:04:15 AM »
I'm trying to find full length pictures, both sides of the "Modena Hawken" rifle. So far I've only seen the RH side of the buttstock where it shows the patchbox. It seems like thats all that is available unless some of the older members have any.

I would appreciate any help that you could give me.


Thanks,

Martin

Offline bluenoser

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2012, 04:42:05 PM »
John Baird's book "Hawken Rifles The Mountain Man's Choice" has a chapter on Mariano Modena's rifle.  There are no full length pictures, but there are pictures of elements on both sides and the underside of the forestock.  The text contains quite a bit of information specific to the rifle.

Laurie

Offline Longknife

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2012, 05:55:23 PM »
Martin, I have some pics of a copy made by Freddy Harrison, if that interests you..Ed
Ed Hamberg

Offline Herb

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2012, 06:53:18 PM »
This rifle is in Jim Gordon's museum in Glorieta, NM.  Here is a photo I took a couple of years ago.  Gordon privately published a three-volume set of books with color photos, "Great Gunmakers for the Early West".  Volume III, "Western U.S." has photos of this rifle.  One full length, one of the cheek side through the entry pipe (rifle has a droopy beavertail cheekpiece that runs into the top of the wrist at the comb, with a silver medalion), toe line from the trigger guard back to the butt, comb line from the hammer back (kind of a fat cheek piece), and the muzzle.  Funny looking lock panels.  A rifle that most Hawken experts would say "That ain't a Hawken!"
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 04:26:14 AM by Herb »
Herb

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2012, 08:01:14 PM »
As has been said,John Baird's book titled "Hawken rifles,the mountain man's choice" has some pictures in black and white. It is an authentic Hawken,probably new in 1833 and carried by Mariano Modena for 25 years and then rebuilt in 1858 by a Hawken shop in Denver. The late Tom Dawson made at least one precise copy of this rifle and I took 3rd place with it in the first unofficial Hawken 130 yard offhand shoot at Friendship in 1968. I have an exact lock plate profile pattern for this gun that Dawson gave me and have made perhaps 4 of these. It is a small lock almost to pistol specs.This is all in Baird's book but I
understand that it is now hard to get. I have copy #3 autographed by John Baird in 1968 at Friendship indiana.
I may look at this book and repost any error corrections that I find.

Bob Roller

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2012, 08:33:54 PM »
As Herb said, the gun is in the Gordon Museum in New Mexico. You can contact Jim Gordon about this gun, or any of the many other Hawken rifles in his possession. He is a very nice fellow and I would expect that he will be happy to talk with you. Sorry I don't have his phone number, but if you look on the internet, you should find our how to get in to get in touch with him.
Dick

Martin_G

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2012, 11:38:23 PM »
I want to say a big "THANK YOU" to all of you for your suggestions & advice. I've looked around for Bairds book this past month and the reasonably priced books are gone and one guy had the book listed for about $175.00 ! I don't recall if it was a signed book or not but I thought the price was outrageous!


Thanks again!

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2012, 01:26:16 AM »
Looking online and found this published phone number that should take you to Jim Gordon. It is (505)
982-9667. It came from an oline article on his three volumes on frontier arms.
Dick

Dogshirt

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2012, 09:16:02 AM »
I want to say a big "THANK YOU" to all of you for your suggestions & advice. I've looked around for Bairds book this past month and the reasonably priced books are gone and one guy had the book listed for about $175.00 ! I don't recall if it was a signed book or not but I thought the price was outrageous!


Thanks again!

I got my copy of  "Hawken rifles,the mountain man's choice" on eBay for $18.00 2 months ago.
It doesn't always come up, but at $175.00, I'd definetly check there first!

Offline prairieofthedog

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2012, 07:15:47 PM »
Martin G,researching these Hawkens can be baffling.I am in the process of finding a builder to do a 1830's Hawken.The Modena rifle shown has a trigger guard that most say was 1840 or later.So either those guards were made earlier or it was replaced with later type guard when the rifle was redone.I still don't know if will go with Perc. or flint LOL!For the money I am going to spend I want get it  as close to the originals. as possible.   

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2012, 09:16:11 AM »
Martin G,researching these Hawkens can be baffling.I am in the process of finding a builder to do a 1830's Hawken.The Modena rifle shown has a trigger guard that most say was 1840 or later.So either those guards were made earlier or it was replaced with later type guard when the rifle was redone.I still don't know if will go with Perc. or flint LOL!For the money I am going to spend I want get it  as close to the originals. as possible.   

I would hesitate to try to date a Hawken based solely on the TG.
 




Yes its a variant.  Its all silver mounted and dates to 1836 and has a TG mounted with pins.
Here are some more from probably late 1820s onward some are mountain rifles some not. One is the "Peterson" Hawken from Baird's book and several more appear there.



Most of the Mtn rifles, including one mounted entirely in brass, have the higher grip rail.
The Modena guard is much like a J&S FS rifle in Baird's book and I see no reason to date it earlier than the guard type on the Peterson rifle. But the FS rifle appears to be one of the earlier rifles in the book but this is ?
The only known original Flintlock Hawken "Mtn rifle" the late S Hawken in the Smithsonian has the high scroll TG and probably dates to the 1850s.
There is a very similar FS percussion S Hawken that has the guard like the Modena.
Its just not a dating feature that I can see.


The "high" scroll guard similar to that shown in the "fan" of rifles above dates to at least the 1780s in England. The Hawken is obviously an Americanized English sporting rifle of 1820 onwards. So the guard style is not something I would care to make a date on. The "flat to the wrist" vs the "high" scroll may have been customer preference for all we know.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2012, 04:39:38 PM »
Tom Dawson and John Baird were alike in the opinion that in a busy shop like the Hawken shop,almost anything of useable quality was "grist for the mill" as Tom put it. I have examined locks and triggers from these guns.and one of the trigger groups was "New old stock" and none of them were what I would call a "quality" part but they were useable.
The Hoffman&Campbell rifle had an Ashmore lock of barely useable quality and the triggers appeared to be Ky.rifle triggers transferred to the longer and wider bar
The hammer on the rifle shown looks almost like a military hammer and the lock plate is close to that of the Peterson fullstock. I have made 2 of these odd looking locks right after Baird's book was published.
The trigger appears to be a single set type and I made a lot of these in years past.It was a "bonehead"design that had the trigger compressing a spring and then the trigger would snap upward when touched. I made some with rollers that compressed the spring and they were a bit smoother. Certainly not the sophisticated types found on European target pistols.

Bob Roller


Offline Ray Nelson

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2012, 08:57:11 PM »
Mr. Roller and Mr. Phariss have an excellent eye for the little details, so take notes when they offer information.

There is also an Muzzle Blast article amongst John B's many in MB during the 60's concerning Hawken Rifles on the Modena Rifle. It is in the September 1967 issue and is the meat of the chapter that appeared later in his book. The article of course has many precise measurements and descriptions as John B. could describe. His series of articles became the book he published that is so highly prized yet today by many of us. Thus why someone probably wants $175?

Also, the cover on C. Hanson's book "The Plains Rifle" is the cheek side of the Modena Rifle if by chance you have not noted that yet as well.

John Barsotti articles from 1954 Rifle and later in Muzzleloader Mag. also offer bits and pieces of general information on the Modina Hawken. I also think Muzzleloader Mag may also have published another separate article on the Modina Rifle?

One other early builder comes to mind who I believe built one as well...that being Ed White. I'm sure many others may have as well but I'm not aware of at this time.

I wish you the best on gaining the correct results for you Modena Hawken project!

Ray

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2012, 09:52:47 PM »
Ed White was from ElDorado,Illinois and made some nice representations of the Hawken rifle.
He had a trade school near him rough mill lock plates and he would send them to me to detail and put in a mechanism of some kind.
My wife and I saw Ed at the Spring Shoot at Friendship in 1971 and he said he would send some more plates after he had a gall bladder removed. Sadly,it was not a gall bladder problem. It was a cancer that spread like wild fire after the doctors opened him up. Three weeks later,he passed away and we lost another fine craftsman. Ed is featured in Baird's book.
Thanks for bringing to memory another old friend now long departed.

Bob Roller

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2012, 08:56:09 PM »
Don't visit here often anymore but could not resist this one. The cheekpiece shape, lock panels and trigger guard all scream Hoffman and Campbell. That puts it solidly post 1840. A friend owns one of the two Dawson copies I know of and I have made two. Finally made a stock pattern in case I get stupid and decide to make another.

Offline Fullstock longrifle

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2012, 09:45:23 PM »
Hey Don, it's good to see you back!

Frank

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2012, 05:09:39 AM »
One of R L Wilson's books has photos in color of the gun too. Hansons Plains Rifles book has them in black and white. Gordons books have several Hawken photos and in color too. A trip to his museum is a real treat as you can see them up close and personal.    Smylee

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2012, 03:06:24 PM »
 Before Jim Gordon acquired the rifle it was on display for many years at the Colorado Historican Society Museum.  At one time they offerred an assortment of photos for a modest fee. You might contact them

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2012, 07:08:59 PM »
Good to see you back, Don.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline mountainman70

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2012, 04:48:58 AM »
Dont forget Andy Fautheree made some fine Hawkens back in the day.I have one of his,made in Oregon 1968,using Al Osterman coil spring lock,one of Uncle Bill Larges 50 cal 1 1/8 barrels,and a gorgeous pice of Oregon Tiger maple.I dont remember how to post pics,soon as I find out,I will put up pics.This Hawken is reported to have been built off an origional.It is a fine Hawke.Thanks,guys,it is good to be back on here.Dave F

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Anyone have pics of the "Modena Hawken" ?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2012, 04:49:52 PM »
I ran into a Fautheree Hawken at a gun show about a year ago. It had a Large barrel, and walnut stock, probably should have bought it.
   Jim Clyman's Hawken rifle is in Napa California. It is full stocked, has a lock marked Adolphus Meier, and throws a one ounce ball. I think it might have a flat to the wrist style guard.
 Obviously the Hawkens brothers used locks from many sources, some good, some not so much. I was told Adolphus Meier was a St. Louis hardware dealer.

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