Author Topic: "St. Louis" horns  (Read 21655 times)

Offline Loudy

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2012, 05:02:18 PM »
Habu,

I'm glad to hear that you found the letter from R. E. Lee to Henry Kayser of interest.  Here are some more pieces of the puzzle... 

Back in the mid-1830's St. Louis was grappling with how to control the mighty Mississippi River.  A then young West Point trained engineer named Lt. Robert E. Lee was called in by St. Louis native Gen. Charles Gratiot, chief of the engineer corps, to help tame the beast.  Gratiot and Lee worked with a young German born engineer named Henry Kayser to develop a system of dykes and levees to control the river.  Henry Kayser went on to become the foremost civil engineer in St. Louis prior to the Civil War. 

Ref. "The Salvation of St. Louis, St. Louis The Fourth City 1764-1909" by Walter B. Stevens;
The S. J. Clarke Publishing Co., 1909.     

http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/steamboat.htm

R. E. Lee's letter mentions a "Gen. G.".  I'm guessing he was referring to General Gratiot.  More hunches!

Mark Loudenslager     

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2012, 06:20:38 PM »
Is this the same Gratiot that served in the Black Hawk war on the Illinois Wisconsin border? I think...cant recall for certain and could be dead wrong...but I think I was once told by a collector of ST Louis horns that Black Hawk supposedly had one of these horns as well?
tc
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Offline Habu

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2012, 08:16:10 PM »
Some followup:

Catlin traveled with Clark to a council at Prairie du Chien in 1830, and seems to have been a frequent guest of Clark on later visits to St. Louis. 

Lt. Lee not only requested Mr. Kayser send him a buffalo horn, but earlier--while working on the levees--Lee rented a room from, and apparently frequently dined with, Clark. 

While in St. Louis in 1832, Robert Campbell bought from the "Horn Maker," 5 "common horns" @ $.56 1/4 per, and one "fine" horn for himself @ $2.00.  Aside from giving us some interesting numbers on prices, it seems to indicate that at least one person in St. Louis was making horns of varying price levels according to quality/ornamentation. 

Still digging. . . .

Offline louieparker

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2012, 10:40:58 PM »
Also in Campbell's records dated July 17 1832 .....1......powder horn......$5.00
                                                                           6......powder horns,,@..62 1/2...$3.75

In 1832  five dollars was a bunch of money and would suggest much time involved in the making.....Huba, how would you like to see that horn ?..LP

Offline Habu

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2012, 05:12:55 AM »
Louie, I don't have the complete records, so I have to ask if those were mountain prices?  By 17 July Campbell should have been at the rendezvous.  From the records I do have, it looks like John Gray, Narcissa Provo, and Robert Newell all got horns @ $5 on 17 July; on 12 July Antoine Goodin was charged $5 for a horn. 

Those accounts were why your questions about Creamer and Andrew Jackson caught my attention earlier today--on 28 March, Campbell made a payment of $17 to P Creamer for  "part price of Rifle for Self."  Like to drove myself crazy trying to figure out where I'd seen that name recently. 

Offline louieparker

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2012, 02:54:28 PM »
 Jim, I can't answer that right now..When I get home this evening I will try and find that again
But He did buy the six horns at the same time,,I think there was other stuff listed also....LP

Offline jdm

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2012, 06:50:50 PM »

                                                                 

In 1832  five dollars was a bunch of money and would suggest much time involved in the making.....Huba, how would you like to see that horn ?..LP


Louie, Do you happen to know where that horn is?    JIM
JIM

Offline louieparker

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2012, 12:54:40 AM »
Jdm. I wish my answer could be yes ..Unfortunately I don't have a clue...But I do have hope it will turn up tomorrow !...............LP

Offline jdm

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2012, 01:24:12 AM »
Louie, Knowing your luck it probably Will.   Jim
JIM

Offline louieparker

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2012, 03:20:03 AM »
Huba
I am a poor researcher..I went back and searched, couldn't find the horn entries as I had wrote them down. I think I must have got the figures from two entries '
I think you are right, the five dollar price was a mountain price..Those fellows made a nice profit..If he bought that horn 56 1/4 and sold for five dollars > But if I had been along on that trip carrying those goods I would probably have thought
five dollars was too cheap..
Some interesting entries , like buying pistols from Hawken for $30.00 and having Philip Creamer repair his spurs. Sorry I didn't get the address hot..But its worth looking at......LP
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Offline Habu

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2012, 01:12:11 AM »
I just heard a suggestion that there may be a horn from the St. Louis group in a museum in or around  Oklahoma City.  Does anyone have any suggestions on which museums to check with first?




Offline mr. no gold

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2012, 01:26:53 AM »
Davis Gun Museum in Claremore, or perhaps The Cowboy Hall of Fame?
Dick

Offline Habu

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2012, 03:02:15 AM »
Thanks, that will give me a starting point.  My usual goal with OKC is to get through the traffic and out of town ASAP; I don't know the museums there. 

Jim

Offline Tanselman

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2012, 12:52:52 AM »
There is an original buffalo powder horn here in northern Indiana. Made from a large horn and flattened. It has a white bone spout tip, several smaller rectangular white bone inlays in throat (a couple have fallen off) and a white bone button in the flat butt plug for strap attachment. Spout plug is turned horn. The face of the butt plug is covered with black horn. All surfaces including butt plug have many small white, round bone inlays with small round red (?) inlays inbetween. The red inlays seem to be "chipping out" so are probably not made of bone like the white inlays are. A number of the small red and white inlays have fallen out. The front panel has the initials "C.F." in a large heart, also formed from many small bone and red inlays (of small diameter) so it was put on horn at the time the horn was made. Really neat, large old horn. It came with a nice Spencer buffalo rifle years ago; owner thought the horn didn't belong with a cartridge gun so he sold it off and kept the rifle. Shelby Gallien

Offline Habu

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2012, 03:55:48 AM »
Tanselman, any chance you can get pictures of this horn?  It sounds fascinating, but I can't quite picture it.   Are the red inlays colored bone, or wood, or glass, or ????
Thanks,
Jim

Offline Tanselman

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2012, 04:17:55 AM »
Jim, I'll see if pictures are possible, may take some time. To visualize the horn, think of a large, black buffalo horn, lots of curve, that is flattened and then shaped into an octogon with: large flat panels on front and back, smaller flat panels on top and bottom, and really small flats at the corners of the larger panels, creating an "almost" rectangle cross-section with corners flattened into an octagon. The white and red inlaid dots run along edges of each panel of horn as borders. The front panel has a lot more colored dots, making a moderate sized heart figure near the plug end with the initials CF inside, all done in the same colored inlaid dots. As mentioned in first post, the white bone inlay is solid, but the red inlay seems to be chipping off around the surface, as if it's a softer material like hardened red clay...I didn't look that close at red dots to really know, other than not as smooth and perfect as white bone ones now...but must have been when horn was new. The spout is worked into an octagon as all the panels come together, so the bone spout tip is also shaped as an octagon to match the horn body. Tip is perhaps 2 inches long and tapers. Up on spout near bone tip are several small, flat white bone inlays decorating the larger flats. They are attached by round black "pins" probably made of buffalo horn. A couple of the small white rectangular panels have fallen off as the pins have fallen out. Horn is old with good patina, not one of those highly polished "typical" buffalo powder horns that look almost new. Hope that helps you visualize it a little better. P.S. does anyone know a buffalo hunter with last initial "F" and perhaps his wife's first initial "C"? Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 05:14:22 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Habu

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2012, 05:05:23 AM »
Thank you very much for the description!   Good luck getting pictures, we'd all love to see them.

It some ways it sounds like the horn Mr. No Gold described earlier in this thread, back on 14 May.  I was careful asking about the red inlays because I didn't want to suggest anything, but when you described it as ". . . chipping off around the surface, as if it's a softer material like hardened red clay . . . " I can't help but wonder if it is Catlinite, as Mr. No Gold described of the horn he saw at the Great Western show.  That horn also had initials ("C. C." in that case). 

Jim

Offline Roger B

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2012, 01:12:53 PM »
I'll head over to J M Davis and see if I can find one of these horns.  I don't remember seeing one previously.
Roger B.
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Offline Loudy

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2012, 07:31:00 PM »
On the Contempory Makers Blogsite today there are some good photos of a buffalo powderhorn that is in the Missouri Historical Society's collection.  It is similar to the William Clark powderhorn.  Lot's of speculation about this particular horn and whether or not the engraving scenes were done by John Audubon himself.

www.contemporarymakers.blogspot.com  

Mark Loudenslager
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 08:25:18 PM by Chuck Burrows »

Offline Habu

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2012, 07:49:14 PM »
The photos and text seem to have come from here: http://alisonandtheprofessor.blogspot.com/2011/07/powder-horn-bucks-fawns-and-snake.html  The text there seems to indicate that the the horn is in the possession of MassAudubon, or the Audubon family (the earlier blog site isn't clear). 

The Missouri Historical Society has the Clark horn, and one other from the St. Louis group (apparently the one posted by JoeG on 14 May, but I haven't been able to get confirmation of this from the museum), but unless it is a recent acquisition, it seems they don't have the horn possibly engraved by Audubon. 

Offline louieparker

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2012, 08:48:56 PM »
I recently found that horn on a site and corresponded with the person who I understood had it in their possession..I was told Audubon bought the horn on his trip up the Missouri and it had been in the family since... For some reason they wouldn't sell it to me !   Louie

Offline Loudy

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Re: "St. Louis" horns
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2012, 08:56:17 PM »
Habu,

I'll try to clear this up next week.  I'll stop by the Missouri Historical Society Library on Monday.  I'll see if I can get additional photos & dimensions of any buffalo horns that they actually do possess.  Sorry if I have been the spreader of misinformation.   

Mark "Loudy" Loudenslager