Santa Fe Hawkens

[Dphariss]

I think that PG Hawken was made as a hunting rifle and the lollypop
sight added later. Are there any known specimens beyond this one?
This one is shown in Baird's book "Hawken Rifles,the Mountain Man's Choice"
as one of a group then owned by Jim Severn. Whatever it is/was,I like it and
would like to have one but that is a dream for me that I will never fulfill.
I can't make time to make a simple New York match rifle that sets neglected
in my shop.

Bob Roller

I dunno there are 3 of these at least and all have the same tang sight mount.
Dan

[Dphariss]

If someone will send me an E mail address to <wvgzr@webtv.net> I have several
fine pictures of an original pistol grip Hawken. I made a lock and triggers for a man
that is copying it.

Bob Roller

There are more photos of a similar rifle at
http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/ImageViewer.cfm?object_key=23579&img=%2Fcanon1d2005%2F1997.4.15v1.jpg
Including bottom view of the PG and trigger assembly.

Dan

[Hungry Horse]

Remember guys that the Hawkens rifles, in the later period, all used hardware that was patterned off of English sporting firearms. Some of the earliest examples of pistol gripped rifles, and fowlers, are British. This just seems like a natural transition to me.


                           Hungry Horse

[Bob Roller]

I don't think the crescent butt plate was patterned after anything
the Brits were making then. I have a friend who make a fine copy of a
Hawken using Wane Robedeaux? full scale prints and his father took
a look at it and asked if he could make him one without that horrible
crescent butt plate. He did make it and it looks really good. That all
took place about 1974.

Bob Roller

[Dphariss]

I don't think the crescent butt plate was patterned after anything
the Brits were making then. I have a friend who make a fine copy of a
Hawken using Wane Robedeaux? full scale prints and his father took
a look at it and asked if he could make him one without that horrible
crescent butt plate. He did make it and it looks really good. That all
took place about 1974.

Bob Roller

Yeah the crescent butt is the American part.
I don't use case steel crescents. I make them wider and deeper as Don King did.
Dan

[Dphariss]

Remember guys that the Hawkens rifles, in the later period, all used hardware that was patterned off of English sporting firearms. Some of the earliest examples of pistol gripped rifles, and fowlers, are British. This just seems like a natural transition to me.


                           Hungry Horse

The pistol grips were weaker and more likely to break in the wrist.
This was pointed out concerning English rifles in the 1840s by Parkman.
The PG Sharps was weaker than the straight grips for the same reason the PG Hawken would be no long bottom tang tied to the upper one.
I am sure the PG Hawkens were purpose built for match shooting. The one in the Cody Museum appears to have been broken about were the triggers are.
Like SPG I would really like  to examine the bore of one of these PG Hawkens.

Dan

[Bob Roller]

As I recall,Parkman broke the stock thru the STRAIGHT grip of his Hoffman&Campbell
rifle which was a J&S Hawken with engraving and checkering.I think he and the gun fell
off of a startled mule. Fastening the tang and the long trigger bar didn't seem to help.
Tom Dawson owned this gun at one time and took the broken area apart in the wrist of
the stock and told me there were 19 pieces so he epoxied them and afterward,put a draw bar
in the stock to really secure it. Bad treatment is the stock buster more so than lack of a thru
bolt.

Bob Roller

[hammer]

Hello Mtn Meek.
I have just noticed this subject come alive again.   I somehow missed all your research, which is invaluable.  I will print that down and keep it safe.

I am still left with those very early Uberti 'Kit Carson' rifles such as mine which are marked .54 calibre but are actually .53 calibre (see my earlier post).

No, there is no choke.  Mine is also and not walnut.  And it has the slant breech.   And that tiny half-dovetail that locks the toe plate edge to the toe of the butt plate.   Browned butt plate and barrel and (still) very high quality colour-case hardening to the lock plate and trigger guard.    Metal to wood fit is exceptional.

Did the 'Santa Fe' rifles have all these features?
Is the 'Santa Fe' a later product.

The records you show seem to point to the early 80's whereas I have been led to believe my rifle was made in the 70's.

I think there are still some gaps to fill here.

Peter.

[Dphariss]

As I recall,Parkman broke the stock thru the STRAIGHT grip of his Hoffman&Campbell
rifle which was a J&S Hawken with engraving and checkering.I think he and the gun fell
off of a startled mule. Fastening the tang and the long trigger bar didn't seem to help.
Tom Dawson owned this gun at one time and took the broken area apart in the wrist of
the stock and told me there were 19 pieces so he epoxied them and afterward,put a draw bar
in the stock to really secure it. Bad treatment is the stock buster more so than lack of a thru
bolt.

Bob Roller

I did not say that the straight grip would not break. It just harder to do. If its made right.  But horse wrecks are really hard on guns and this is likely why the long tang Hawkens were made as they were.
If the gun lands wrong or gets mashed right by the horse its not going to survive.
But stronger guns have a better chance.
There are numerous original Hawken rifles both broken and unbroken.
Dan

[Dphariss]

Hello Mtn Meek.
I have just noticed this subject come alive again.   I somehow missed all your research, which is invaluable.  I will print that down and keep it safe.

I am still left with those very early Uberti 'Kit Carson' rifles such as mine which are marked .54 calibre but are actually .53 calibre (see my earlier post).

No, there is no choke.  Mine is also and not walnut.  And it has the slant breech.   And that tiny half-dovetail that locks the toe plate edge to the toe of the butt plate.   Browned butt plate and barrel and (still) very high quality colour-case hardening to the lock plate and trigger guard.    Metal to wood fit is exceptional.

Did the 'Santa Fe' rifles have all these features?
Is the 'Santa Fe' a later product.

The records you show seem to point to the early 80's whereas I have been led to believe my rifle was made in the 70's.

I think there are still some gaps to fill here.

Peter.

The rifle they were patterned after was not delivered to Allen until about August 78 according to John Baird in the Sept 78 "The Buckskin Report" where the prototype is pictured in "High Art in Gunsmithing". The October 78 issue has a full inside back cover ad for the "Santa Fe Hawken" stating to write for more information and ordering instructions. Price 275 for 1/2 stock perc, 325 for FS flintlock. These ads disappear from the May 79 issue.
There is nothing more concerning the rifles in the 1978 or 1979 years. I know there is a write up about the first rifles in a later issue, finding it is more trouble than I care to go to.
My guess would be late 78 or early 79 for one of the good copies.

Dan

[Mtn Meek]

Here are the advertisements that Dan refers to:

October 1978 ad from Buckskin Report


February 1979 ad from Buckskin Report


April 1979 ad from Buckskin Report


These ads clearly indicate that Allen was trying to develop the Santa Fe Hawken and the Baird-Webber J&S Hawken rifles at the same time.

Unfortunately, Allen ran into trouble with Olin about the same time and probably had other difficulties as well.  The net result was that his company was reorganized into two separate companies as indicated by the following ads from the July 1980 issue of Buckskin Report.






I had previously stated that Allen Firearms went out of business in 1987.  My source for this information was the Blue Book of Modern Black Powker Values.  I now question if this is correct because I cannot find any reference to Allen Firearms after 1980.  If Allen Firearms did cease to exist after 1980, this might explain why the Baird-Webber J&S Hawken rifle never came to fruition.

Uberti continued to produce the Santa Fe Hawken after the demise of Allen Firearms, and it was sold through Old-West Gun Co., now Cimarron F.A., Track of the Wolf, the Log Cabin Shop, and probably other outlets well into the 1990's.

Hammer, I have been unable to find any reference to a Uberti, or any other Italian made, Hawken prior to the dates that I mention earlier.  That's not to say that they don't exist, but I couldn't find any advertisements or any mention in the muzzleloader magazines of the period.  The features you mention, the slant breech and that tiny half-dovetail that locks the toe plate edge to the toe of the butt plate, are present on Uberti's Santa Fe Hawkens made after 1979.

I did see a Uberti Hawken kit offered for sale on Gunbroker.com earlier this year that had a beautifully figured maple stock and color-cased furniture.  Evidently, they did make their Hawken with stocks other than walnut.

[Bob Roller]

Wow! $275 in semi honest currency for a probably useful muzzleloader.

Bob Roller

[Dphariss]

I did not read  the ads carefully enough. I only read parts of the Oct 78 ad. I screwed up.   
I thought the price was too cheap...
I have seen photos "Santa Fe" Hawkens that appeared to have the slight curve to the comb line of the J&S which has caused some further confusion on my part.  I am sure I have something on an Italian made J&S in an old Buckskin Report but its post 79 and the only index of articles ends with 79. I think I ran across it looking for barrel steel articles in the early 80s a couple of years ago, but this topic spans quite a time frame.

Dan

[hammer]

Mtn Meek, thanks yet again.  More for me to print down and file.
 
If, as you say, Allen did make the Santa Fe in maple and with that slanting breech and dovetailed toe and butt plates then I guess that still leaves the anomoly of the barrel stamped .54 calibre with an actual bore of .53 calibre.  As well as the Uberti markings and serial 817.  No '1 of 1000' and no markings on the lock or other parts.   Perhaps mine is one of a first batch that was indeed manufactured with the 'wrong' calibre then corrected in later production runs?
Whatever it is, it is certainly a most beautifully made rifle that shoots to the same high standard to which it was made.  A proud possession.
Thanks again.

[Marvin S]

Hello all,first post here. I have SN 35 marked western arms corp 54cal but it uses a .520 RB. Thanks for the info on these rifles. I used to shoot a lot of matches with it but pretty much switched to flint guns years ago.

[Mtn Meek]

...then I guess that still leaves the anomoly of the barrel stamped .54 calibre with an actual bore of .53 calibre...
Thanks again.

Hammer, the undersize bore of the Santa Fe and Jedediah Smith rifles are well known. 

Look at the ad for Western Gun Store, Inc and what it says about the caliber. 

I don't know if there is any credibility to the claim that it is "based on actual average bore diameter of .53" from a number of original HAWKEN rifles."  To accurately measure the bore diameter would require slugging the barrel, which likely would require removing the breech plug.  I don't know if this was ever done to "a number of original HAWKEN rifle".  The .53 caliber is cited by Hanson in THE PLAINS RIFLE and by Baird in HAWKEN RIFLES - THE MOUNTAIN MAN'S CHOICE, and is the likely source for the ad.  Even if they intended to copy what they thought was the "average" for a Hawken rifle, it doesn't explain why the barrel is stamped .54 caliber when they were bored .53".

One wild idea I had was that the Italians got confused with the conversion from the English bore/gauge system to the caliber system.  A 32 gauge is equivalent to a .53" ball.  They may not have realize they needed to add "windage" to the ball diameter for the proper barrel bore diameter (roughly .010" according to Gooding in TRADE GUNS OF THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY 1670-1970, page 64).  In other words, a 32 gauge is equivalent to a .54 caliber bore, but uses a .53" ball.

Another suggestion to date your rifle is to look for the Italian proof marks on the barrel.  My Uberti kit Hawken is stamped with "AT" next to the proof marks.  The "AT" is a code for 1988.

[kermits]

Up date on the TOTW Bridger Hawken kit...........Got 99% of the kit in October 2012.  Here it is the first week of March 2013, I have all pieces of kit except breech plug and tang assembly.  They have been on BACK ORDER for about 6 months with no indication they will be to me any time soon!  I'm very disappointed with the responce's and excuses I've received from them about this issue.  They sold me the car without the engine!  For now the kit is in the box waiting until "all" the components are in place.  (I will not touch this kit until all pieces are here, as I may just as well send the whole mess back to them).  In the meantime, I purchased the Hawken kit from "The Hawken Shop", but it will be a month or so before it too is sent to me, as they have to assemble the components, (whatever that means) and will send a complete kit when they get it all together.  This was going to be a winter project, now it looks like a spring or early summer project.   Just venting!

[Herb]

Kermits, another source of the 1 1/8" Hawken breech plug and tang is Muzzleloader Builder's Supply in Idaho.  See their web page, but they are also temporarily out of stock.  Ryan makes a lot of his parts, you could call him.  I got a solid flint breech plug for another Hawken I'm going to build, from thegunworks in Oregon.  Just looked at their web page and they have the 1 1/8" percussion Bridger breech plug and tang in stock for $46.50.  I am just doing the final stock shaping for a near-exact copy of a Bridger Hawken with a 1 1/8" GRRW barrel.  I have GRRW's tracing and drawing of the original rifle from 1975, with many dimensions, plus 24 B&W photos Greg Roberts, shop foreman, took of the original.  I built my rifle from a blank and with some hand-made parts.  Track's parts are very close to the original, probably the best out there.

[PPatch]

Yes, try The Gun Works up in Oregon:

Contact Suzi at: info@thegunworks.com

I recieved my order from them via UPS on January 23 - Hawken style tang and breech plug for 1 1/8" barrel. The tang will require some corrective bending and fiddling with btw. I believe there is a thread here on ALR about that subject.

dave

[Bob Roller]

Kermits,
Getting foundry off of dead center and then finding a machinist with a working knowledge
of muzzle loaders and their breeching systems is another thing. I have seen some shabby,dangerous
work done on these parts and what was even worse,they were out on the market for sale. I pointed
this out to a dealer at Friendship a few years ago and he got mad about it. I don't know if he was mad at
me or the person that did the bothched work.These particular breeches had the flash channel hole drilled up
thru the nipple threads and it didn't take a close look to see it or 50+years of experience to condemn them.

 Bob Roller

[kermits]

Up date on the TOTW Hawken.............nothing!  The kit is not complete without the breech plug and tang assembly....What a sad way to do business.  Now for the good news.  I received the Hawken Shop kit 

The Hawken Shop kit is complete!  The components are as good if not better than the components from the TOTW Bridger kit. OK now for my observations of the kit from The Hawken Shop.   I did have a few concern on some of items but overall its a workeable kit. The stock looks like it was cut out with a hatchet, but can be worked out.  The barrel came with the breech plug fitted and is outstanding.  The barrel is stamped S.HAWKEN ST. LOUIS.  As this kit is being made by the Hawken Shop, this alone makes it more to the origional as far as components go.  Most all components are as cast, but a little better, as the casting seam lines are less in the Hawken Shop kit.  The trigger and guard are assembled which is nice, the lock is OK but not fantastic.  The ram rod thimbles are way oversize for the rod.  Price wise I have about $1,200 into the TOTW kit with better quality stock and extra parts and pieces.   I paid $1,300 for the Hawken Shop kit, no extra stuff and a poor stock.  Overall am I happy?  No.  For the money, I did not get good value for the $'s spent.  I would think for this amount of money, the kit components should have been fitted to the stock with most all rough spots taken care of.  I guess to get a kit ready to run would be about $2500...oh seems I'v already spent that!  Looks like I have some work to do to get these two kits up and running.

[Herb]

If the Hawken Shop parts are for a Jim Bridger Hawken, the rod thimbles are likely not "way oversize".  Certainly for a 3/8" rod, if that is what you have.  The original Bridger rifle has a 1/2" ramrod that tapers to 7/16" inside the stock.  I have drawings and dimensions and B&W photos of that rifle from when the GRRW had it in 1975.  The thimbles are made of rolled sheet iron, .615 OD and .530 ID  front thimble and .620 OD and .520 ID rear thimble.  the Entry pipe is .500 ID.  The correct entry pipe is TOW's RP-Hawk-TE-7-I, which is 7/16" ID and has to be drilled out to .500 ID, easy to do.  All of Track's parts are correct for that rifle except for the entry pipe.  The original has a 1 1/8" straight barrel 33 1/2" long and weighed 11 1/4 pounds.  Track's #Plan-Hawken is a very close blueprint of the original.  I have used their stock, but on Hawkens I built 8 or 10 years ago and can't comment on how close the stock is to the original, but I bet it is close.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Herb, thanks for the evaluation.  I had the opportunity to assemble a TOW Bridger Hawken rifle for a friend who didn't have the skill or time, and I believe it made up into an excellent and authentic rifle.  I don't remember any of the issues described by Kermit.

[kermits]

Up date on TOTW back order item (Breech Plug and Tang assembly)...........nothing to report.   

Mabe it's me...........but I can't get any satisfaction from them.  This is a "Paid Backorder item". BUMMER

[PPatch]

Up date on TOTW back order item (Breech Plug and Tang assembly)...........nothing to report.   

Mabe it's me...........but I can't get any satisfaction from them.  This is a "Paid Backorder item". BUMMER

FYI Kermits - The Gun Works Muzzleloading Emporium has the same tang and breech plug as TOTW. Bought those items from them last month - Good service, prompt delivery.  URL is

http://www.thegunworks.com/GunIndex.cfm?next=who

dave