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Author Topic: Pyrodex in revolvers?  (Read 3286 times)
flatrock
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« on: July 29, 2012, 03:22:02 PM »

I have a surplus of pyrodex that was given to me and just wondered if anyone has used it in perc. revolvers.  It is the RS which I know is the FFg equivient of black powder.  Any suggestion? loads in a .44?Huh? Huh
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Bull Shannon
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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2012, 03:41:50 PM »

I really don't like using Pyrodex especially for the fouling it leaves behind but not to look a gift horse in the mouth, I would start with 25 grains and see how that works.   If that is hitting low then move up to 30 grains and see how that does for you.
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Old Ford2
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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2012, 04:12:04 PM »

I am quite biased regarding the BP replacement powders,( I don't like them!) however anybody that shoots black powder handguns, know the difficulty that arises with fowling and the difficulty to continue shooting a revolver.
Without cleaning every two or three cylinders, the action in most cases freezes up solid.
However with Pyrodex P powder, I can easily shoot twenty cylinders full, ( that is 20 X 6 = 120 shots ) without stopping.
I shoot 28 grs. of Pyrodex P, a .457 round ball ( soft lead ) and a dab of lube on each ball.
I also put a grease lube on the cylinder pin prior to shooting.
My black powder revolver is a Uberti 1860 Army ( stainless model )
I do clean it VERY WELL after each shooting session. I have had it since 1985.
I have not used Pyrodex RS in my shooter.
Old Ford
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BrownBear
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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2012, 05:17:55 PM »

I've had very good luck in a 44, both for ignition and accuracy, with Pyrodex P.  From what I've seen, the guns can't tell it from Goex 3f.  Dunno about Pyrodex RS, but nothing ventured nothing gained.
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Hungry Horse
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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2012, 05:29:18 PM »

 The only guns I would consider using Pyrodex in are direct fire weapons, like revolvers, double barrel shotguns, or under hammer/sideslapper rifles. Anything with a drum and nipple, or a bolster and nipple, fire too slow with Pyrodex do be very consistent. JMO.

                         Hungry Horse
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volatpluvia
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Doing mission work in sunny south, Mexico


« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2012, 07:24:35 PM »

I used pyro almost eclusively in the revolver I had.  I would think that you should get good velocity and accuracy with RS if you pack the ball pretty tight.  Like has been said, clean it really good and saturate your metal parts with WD-40 or somesuch.
volatpluvia
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trentOH
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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2012, 08:46:45 PM »

Just to go in a little different direction, maybe you could trade it to someone for something you'd rather have....
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Daryl
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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2012, 10:07:49 PM »

My suggeston for every one fo the phoney powder actually made with chlorates, ie: perchlorates in the MSDS, is to use them for garden fertilizer or merely dump them down the toilet and flush.
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bob in the woods
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« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2012, 03:22:43 PM »

Daryl, ....they work OK for blowing beaver dams  Shocked Grin
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LynnC
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« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2012, 12:40:57 AM »

And stumps too Cheesy
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FRJ
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« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2012, 11:30:43 AM »

Just to put a positive spin on this, blowing up beaver dams or stumps would only poison a stream or a stump!!!!! That stuff is so noxious that the government should be called to despose of it in a safe and sane manner. FRJ Cheesy
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hanshi
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« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2012, 01:32:32 PM »

I tried it in a revolver once and didn't like it at all.
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HardBall
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« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2012, 04:11:54 PM »

I haven't tried Pyrodex in a C&B.  I have had great luck with 2F black powder rather than the typical 3F.  2F will fill a cylinder well with no need for fillers.

I guess Pyrodex "RS" would work similarly but I haven't fired a load of Pyrodex in almost twenty years- I quit using it as soon as I found a place that sold Goex real BP.
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Daryl
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« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2012, 08:19:16 PM »

I have a friend who uses it in a stainless Ruger cap and ball revolver - perhaps it might be OK for that gun, I don't know.

I do know the fumes alone disintegrated the stainless cat-walk over the chlorate vats in a building where it is made. Finding out THAT gem of knowledge was enough for me - not to mention the numbers of barrels I've seen that were destroyed.

One fellow I know who used it exclusively: I watched him clean his barrels.  He actually cleaned his guns thoroughly just after getting back to camp, even before supper, only having fired 3 or 4 shots that day while hunting grouse. All told, he probably only shot 20 shots while hunting that season, but did some testing at home. I knew he was cleaning his guns well, but to no avail.  The stuff still rotted the bores of 4 rifles of his - 2 custom rifles with 3 - GM barrels and 2 TC's - a .40 and a .54. Considering the shallow .004" rifled bores rotted just as badly as the .012" rifling, the rifling depth and possibly not getting them clean, didn't have anything to do with the pitting.

I was flabbergasted at seeing the damage. The bores totally ruined in only 2 years.
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bob in the woods
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« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2012, 09:35:09 AM »

I think a lot of folks would change their minds about using the stuff, if they had an idea about what was actually in the " smoke " ie the gaseous product of the combustion. Mad Monk kindly supplied me with a link at one time which referred to " cyanide" if I recall correctly.  My personal belief, all kidding aside, is that there really is not much reason to use the stuff; and a whole lot of reasons not to.
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HardBall
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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2012, 09:59:33 AM »

My personal belief, all kidding aside, is that there really is not much reason to use the stuff; and a whole lot of reasons not to.

I completely agree.  I can think of no circumstance where it's preferable to use a BP substitute powder instead of a traditional BP such as Goex or Swiss.



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Sean,
BrownBear
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« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2012, 12:00:17 PM »


I can think of no circumstance where it's preferable to use a BP substitute powder instead of a traditional BP such as Goex or Swiss.


Try moving to the bush.  Lotta remote areas in Alaska where your choices are subs or not shooting.  Period.  No question real black is better all around.  But I doubt you're doing much for the sport criticizing folks with no choice but using subs.  If they could get black, they would.  If black is the only route to participation in "real" muzzleloading, numbers of enthusiasts will continue to shrink.  No one likes to be whacked every time they open their mouth for something they have no control over.  Only option is to shut up and leave.
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HardBall
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« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2012, 12:20:35 PM »


I can think of no circumstance where it's preferable to use a BP substitute powder instead of a traditional BP such as Goex or Swiss.


  But I doubt you're doing much for the sport criticizing folks with no choice but using subs.  If they could get black, they would. 


BrownBear,  I think you misunderstood me.  I never criticized anyone for using a substitute powder.  I said real BP was preferable to a substitute powder.  Obviously a substitute is preferable to nothing.
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Sean,
BrownBear
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« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2012, 12:34:11 PM »


I can think of no circumstance where it's preferable to use a BP substitute powder instead of a traditional BP such as Goex or Swiss.


  But I doubt you're doing much for the sport criticizing folks with no choice but using subs.  If they could get black, they would. 



BrownBear,  I think you misunderstood me.  I never criticized anyone for using a substitute powder.  I said real BP was preferable to a substitute powder.  Obviously a substitute is preferable to nothing.

I beg to differ.  I just described a common circumstance in which the subs are preferable.  Given the choice of shooting subs or not shooting, the constant grief guys get for using subs leaves them only the choice of not associating with "traditionalists" or to quit shooting altogether.   

I've moved heaven and earth to get real black into my location, taking a year and private transport at the cost of just over $50 a pound by the time all was said and done.  And I'm one of about three muzzleloaders  among hundreds here that have gone to the trouble and expense.  Everyone else is shooting subs.  A bunch of good guys, for sure, but they won't come here or to any of the other traditional sites. 

They're looking for ways to make the subs work, but all they get is grief.  Guess where they have to go to learn how to use subs, even though they prefer traditional arms?  The answer is written in the local sales records for traditional versus modern muzzleloaders.  Any time a guy like me points out ways to manage with the subs, all he gets is grief.  Chasing off folks is kind of a dead end in a shrinking sport, doncha think?
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2012, 12:51:18 PM »

I don't see anyone giving you grief, BB.  No one is calling you down or stupid for using it.  They're just telling you what to expect.  I still have two pounds of Triple 7 in my powder mag. and cannot bear to throw it away.  Harry Nicholson (Harnic) uses sub powders in his cap and ball revolver successfully, and loves it.  It is good to have all the facts, and it's not personal.
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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Dan'l 1946
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« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2012, 02:19:09 PM »



[/quote]

Try moving to the bush.  Lotta remote areas in Alaska where your choices are subs or not shooting.  Period.  No question real black is better all around.  But I doubt you're doing much for the sport criticizing folks with no choice but using subs.  If they could get black, they would.  If black is the only route to participation in "real" muzzleloading, numbers of enthusiasts will continue to shrink.  No one likes to be whacked every time they open their mouth for something they have no control over.  Only option is to shut up and leave.
[/quote]
  Have you tried Nor'west Company?
                                              Dan
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Daryl
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« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2012, 04:22:07 PM »

As Taylor and others have stated, I meant no disrespect - only to note what happens with Pyrodex.  I have been informed, that T-7 has no perchlorates in it, merely that the MSDS sheet was not changed to reflect that. We know the gun barrels we've saw destroyed, had been using Pyrodex, not T-7.

Mad Monk himself stated if he had to use a sub, it would probably be T-7 - definitely not Pyrodex.
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bob in the woods
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« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2012, 04:41:05 PM »

I meant no disrespect to anyone when I indicated my opinion re not much reason to use subs, and many reasons not to. "Not much" does not mean " No reason " .   No choice is a no brainer IMO, so blast away with glee  Grin    I used to shoot pounds and pounds of Pyrodex a year before I slowly learned what I know today. I pay a premium for Black Powder , over the subs and will continue to do so out of preference.
But, I also prefer shooting to not shooting, so hope it never comes down to no choice here in my neck of the woods.  Back a # of years ago, there was a problem getting black here, due to the destruction of the Goex factory. All brands of black were in sshort supply.  I ended up using Pyrodex duplexed with IMR4227 in my Sharps 45-100. [ 1000 yd matches ]
It needed the 4 gr of 4227 to get decent accuracy at that range. I used 8 pounds of it that summer, and ended up throwing out 200 45 2.6 in cases, but it was better than not shooting.
I cleaned my gun every chance I  got. No damage done that I could detect, but it worried me.
I only give my opinion on the subs to counter balance the unending promotion of them by almost every shop I've gone to. Gun clubs included. Most shooters I know actually believe that they [ subs] are better in every way. Having to use them is a lot different than preferring to use them.
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LynnC
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« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2012, 07:28:56 PM »

Ok, I meant no harm with the stump comment.  I tried pyrodex a long time ago and with the continueous hang fires I gave the rest away.  With the associated corrosion I'm glad I did.  BP was instant ignition and I've stayed with it.

However, last weekend I had the opportunity to try T7 in my Remington 1858.  I loaded and fired 3 cylinders.  Charge was 28 grains, same as my BP charge.  Ignition was fine but I doubt it was making 1/2 the BP velocity.

It was Boom - Whap as the ball hit the back stop. Some actually bounced back Shocked  Definately needed to up the charge but only had the 28 gr measure.

On the positive side, clean-up was a breeze Wink
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Mad Monk
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« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2012, 09:47:21 PM »


However, last weekend I had the opportunity to try T7 in my Remington 1858.  I loaded and fired 3 cylinders.  Charge was 28 grains, same as my BP charge.  Ignition was fine but I doubt it was making 1/2 the BP velocity.

It was Boom - Whap as the ball hit the back stop. Some actually bounced back Shocked  Definately needed to up the charge but only had the 28 gr measure.

On the positive side, clean-up was a breeze Wink

I snipped the quote on the Pyrodex hangfires.  That is not unknown in Pyrodex that was going over the hill as far as chemical stability goes.

With the T& in your revolver.  You might want to look at different percussion caps.
When I got some of the first T7 out I tried it in my Lyman Trade Rifle side lock percussion.  Nothing but trouble!!
Switched over to my Lyman GPR that had original been flint but converted to a mule ear percussion with one of Bernie Tolino's locks.

Compared to black powder, Pyrodex is more difficult to ignite mainly through a higher ignition temperature.  The ignition temperature of T7 is a bit higher than that of Pyrodex.

I ran a bunch of tests.  With the mule ear rifle I started out with standard caps.  Then moved up to the same brand in Magnum caps.  Velocity jumped up.  The Magnum caps have about 20% more primer composition compared to the regular caps.  So they of course give a greater amount of heat and flame.  Then I shot with Remington Black Powder Caps.  This time the velocity really jumped up.  The Remington Black Powder caps were claimed to have 50% more "power".  Meaning 50% more primer composition in them.  So again greater heat and flame.

Smokeless powder have what is known as a "sensitivity to intensity of ignition".  In part due to their high ignition temperatures.  So what flys in the way of ignition strength for black powder will be weak when used with a powder with a lot higher ignition temperature.

But be warned.  As you go up in the amount of primer composition in these caps you get an increase in the amount of residue they leave around the nipple.  I found that I had to clean up the nipple exterior and around the nipple in the flash cup more frequently.

In the mule ear GPR I even had a 209 shot shell primer adapter.  The Remington Black Powder caps gave the same velocity as the 209 shot shell primer.  But the overall difference in the rifle was about 150 feet per second in muzzle velocity between the regular caps and the Remington Black Powder caps and the 209 primer.

E. Ogre
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