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Author Topic: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System  (Read 4208 times)
D. Taylor Sapergia
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« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2012, 10:32:52 PM »

Appleton's.
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2012, 08:44:07 AM »

I too have tried Dutch's "system," but with mixed results.  To wit, the "dry" patch regimen didn't work so well for me: too much effort to seat the patched RB; no magical improvement in accuracy.  However, his target analysis and discussion of patch thickness (I was new at this then) was a real eye opener and helped me to get a new Green Mtn. bbl. to shoot well.  As for wet/damp patches, I found that at least in my Rice bbl'ed. Isaac Haines .54cal. rifle, there was no need to swab the bore at all, although I did so 2x when changing to a different RB.*

For my fellow rum fanciers, try these 80 proof rums:  Bacardi Dark (a real bargain), Gosling's Black Seal (Bermuda rum), or Cruzan 28 yr. old.  Appleton's is good too, as is Mt. Gay.


*73 - 80gr. Graf's (Wano) FFFg by volume
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Paul W. Brasky
doug
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« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2012, 12:18:50 PM »

   even though I have a copy of Dutch's system, I have never used it because it essentially is a bench rest method and we shoot almost exclusively woods walks around here.  I would also be a bit nervous of shooting essentially a dry patch in the woods in summer time.  I did think the method made sense if you were a bench shooter.

    Re the comment about wet muggy conditions, a damp barrel between shots has never been a problem for me and in fact it is somewhat preferrable because it allows easier loading.  Under those conditions I do keep a strip of cloth tied to my possibles bag for wiping the pan and particularly the bottom of the pan cover

cheer Doug
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westerner
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« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2012, 04:47:46 PM »

I been using a spit patch when shooting round balls forever.  Have experimented a lot on my own. I thought that was the fun part of shooting and experimenting with loads.  If Dutch's loading system is a shortcut and it works it would stop all the fun,...... for me that is.
My fun continues. Been experimenting with .38 hollow base (Minie) bullets in one of my German percussion Schuetzen rifles. Part of the fun is making the molds and experimenting with skirt thickness and shapes. Dont want anyone to tell me what works. Have found that it doesnt always work anyway.  
Read Dutch's book and you'll still spend a lifetime having fun experimenting with rifles and loads.  If you're like me that is. I dont know anyone who just wants the best load right now. But, if you have an open mind or you're not very bright or new to BP shooting or like to read about others efforts..................

Better to have an open mind, if you can handle it that is.   Grin

     Joe.












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pathfinder
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« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2012, 11:19:34 AM »

Was alway's leary about how "secretive" everyone was who bought the "system" Kinda cultish sounding. "We bought it,IT'S AWSOME, cant tell ya or we'll have to kill ya!"

I also have no problem using spit as a lube. Dr. Tim is right about having a seperate rag to mop up the pan on humid day's,just dont grab it and stick it in yer mouth for a patch,takes MONTHS to get that taste out!
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20 years later I STILL see the same guy that's on my avatar. Wife see's me differently!
oldarcher
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« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2012, 07:23:18 AM »

I really did not expect this amount of reaction to my post concerning my satisfaction with Dutch's shooting/load system. Dutch wrote his "system" in the early 80's to share his technique to determine how to find the powder/ball/patch/lube your rifle likes best. At that time we had only articles in Muzzle Blasts, Muzzleloader as well as some very good books to advise us. Those of us that were able to go to Friendship could watch the bench shooters, but few would take the time to share their secrets with anyone they did not know. The Internet was not available so Dutch was a great source of information. I reread the information and realized that it was still valid today.

I do not doubt for a second that our Northern Friend is satisfied by shooting without cleaning. I am sure that he is convinced that he and his friends have the "combination" for good accuracy.

I have been shooting for nearly 40 years, and have forgotton the many, many barrels that I have used. (My best shooting barrel was a Getz that I purchased at a NMLRA auction at Friendship in 2000). I have NEVER been able to shoot a good tight patch/ball combination without regular wiping.

The intent of my post has been reached: To discuss the importance of small differences in loading, and to remind each of us to rethink what we think we know. The intent is not to champion a specific technique or load, but to make us constantly challenge our knowledge of what really works.
Just my 2 cents.
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1Chunker
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« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2012, 08:06:16 AM »

Basically it all boils down to having the ability to sort out what works for you & your equipment from the bombardment of information we can deal with. Whether it comes from books or forums of this nature or drunkin campfires or chatter at shoots or where ever. 

I will say that it's easier to trust info coming from proven resourses. Some one winning matches must be doing something right. A shooter who can take 5 balls to the range & put them in the 100yd "one inch group " is also doing everything right.

Keep in mind, while kicking around that 1" group, that, if centered on a standard 100yd NMLRA target that it would score 50XXXXX. This would have probably won every national 100yd round ball bench match shot at Friendship since they started having the matches in the 1930s.
Paul


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Roger Fisher
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« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2012, 10:51:53 AM »

I really did not expect this amount of reaction to my post concerning my satisfaction with Dutch's shooting/load system. Dutch wrote his "system" in the early 80's to share his technique to determine how to find the powder/ball/patch/lube your rifle likes best. At that time we had only articles in Muzzle Blasts, Muzzleloader as well as some very good books to advise us. Those of us that were able to go to Friendship could watch the bench shooters, but few would take the time to share their secrets with anyone they did not know. The Internet was not available so Dutch was a great source of information. I reread the information and realized that it was still valid today.

I do not doubt for a second that our Northern Friend is satisfied by shooting without cleaning. I am sure that he is convinced that he and his friends have the "combination" for good accuracy.

I have been shooting for nearly 40 years, and have forgotton the many, many barrels that I have used. (My best shooting barrel was a Getz that I purchased at a NMLRA auction at Friendship in 2000). I have NEVER been able to shoot a good tight patch/ball combination without regular wiping.

The intent of my post has been reached: To discuss the importance of small differences in loading, and to remind each of us to rethink what we think we know. The intent is not to champion a specific technique or load, but to make us constantly challenge our knowledge of what really works.
Just my 2 cents.
Let me add one little thingy here then I'll shut up!!  You state that our northern friend shoots w/o cleaning and you mention that you can't shoot a tight combo w/o 'regular wiping.... He/they/we ARE cleaning and also are wiping regularly.    I refer to spit patching not teflon....teflon yes we need then to use a seperate patch to clean between each shot (or nearly every shot)  The sloppy wet patch system 'we'clean the bore when we load the beastie and 'we' clean when we shoot the beastie...  not pickin on anyone; but maybe a more careful reading/thinking about the wet patch system would clear it up for you... Smiley  And yes, Ol Dutch's system works also if you like to wipe  with a seperate patch. Cool
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hlary
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« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2012, 04:55:23 PM »

I read this forum quite a bit but primarily for it's entertainment value and on rare occasions feel compelled to post a comment. This is one of those times.
 
First the disclaimer: I do not profess to know all there is about accurate rifle shooting but am able to make at least some simple observations from what I've read and from my own experience of 33 years. It seems to me, that according to everything I've read on this forum, there are an infinite number of ball/patch/lube/load combinations that shoot "accurately" in an equally infinite number of different barrel types/calibers. So therefore it would have to be a simple conclusion based on the free accuracy information obtained from this forum, that a good to premium made barrel would, in all probability, although impractical, shoot to nearly one hole if it were tested clamped in some sort of a vice. Now, somebody said earlier that they got a different "best load" each and every time they went out to shoot. Well, what I am about to propose will likely step on some egos but there has been an obvious neglect of this one particular subject.....shooter ability (OUCH!). Yep, I just said it. And to prove my point, I challenge anyone to drill and tap that barrel, mount a 24X scope on it and shoot some groups. I'll bet you my favorite Indian head nickel that your groups will not only tighten dramatically but will become a heck of a lot more consistent and with a variety of loads too! No, I've never done this myself but an average amount of intelligence along with some good common sense should prove this theory without having to ruin anyone's favorite rifle, right? Therefore I think we can safely conclude that the major element that needs refining in our pursuit of some higher level of accuracy is learning how to better/more consistently shoot a rifle with open iron sights, or in other words, maintain a consistent sight picture every time.  I believe this to be more critical than that elusive perfect load combination.   
 
Some fellow said that Dutch's accuracy method referred to bench rest shooters rather than off hand shooters so it wasn't really relevant. I'll ask this: anybody who regulates their sights or works up a best load in the off hand/standing position, please raise their hand........I thought so. To the sloppy wet patch/no wipe shooters, the obvious reason there is a need for a sloppy wet patch is BECAUSE you don't wipe between shots and judging from the infinite number of "lube" concoctions I've read on this forum alone, just about anything at all will work....even some of that dark rum mentioned earlier. The "dry" patch  (and of course it's not really dry) has no problem being loaded into a barrel that has been preconditioned with a simple wipe between shots. That's one wipe, in and out and that's all. Somebody else said that they didn't have time to "clean" their barrel between shots. The between shot wipe is NOT intended to "clean" but rather to maintain the barrels condition from one shot to the next. Remember that consistency thing? Likewise the no wipe method in essence achieves the same only with a progressively dirtier barrel, up to point I would suppose.  It has already been mentioned (proven?) that there is no way a "dry" patch will go down a barrel that fouled. There's just a lot of funk being pushed down into that powder column. Three inch groups at 200 yards?? How many world records does this person hold!?
 
The Dutch Schultz accuracy method was intended to start anyone down the path to good rifle accuracy, not drop you off right at the front door.
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dagner
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« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2012, 10:37:19 PM »

 i  read some foolish replies about  i shoot a .005 under and .020 thousands patch  and never have to whipe .   so your gun bore is bigger than your numbers indicate   have been shooting chunk about 12 years  we found best acuracy a tight patchted ball  most of people sh00t minimuim of 90 grains of 2ff  most around 115 for a 5o cal    the more powder you shoot the more crap left in barrel   forget to wipe your bore  and try to get a ball down it   you have to beat it down you sure as hell are not going to push it down with a ramrod . now shoot that at the target and watch your crappy score come . this   is chunk and bench is not your woods walk with your coned bores and undersized balls  for easy starting  and loading   dutch schultz was sold and system shot for years by infamous  bevel brothers  one of the top  chunk  shooters in country still uses it .  all the  chunk shooter wipe after every shot and scrape their flat bottomed breach plugs regularly. dont have to clean and still get chunk accurarcy  .bull . the bevels did articles on dirty barrel  deterating shooting  accujracy
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dagner
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« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2012, 10:53:54 PM »

  to save some of you knuclke heads  from a stupid reply  paul griffth has forgot more about accurate muzzle loading shootin than most of us will ever learn  he very very seldom puts  out a comment that is not thought ought  .  it is  well worth your while to listen what he says . he dont get into  arguements or try to make you see his way  . you know when you are reaaly  screwed when he gives you that little smile  then says ok  and  changes the subject  he is a firm believer in letting you learn from the school of hard knocks  if you dont want to listen .  says it builds character.  well he has been known to slip in coons shop  the night before shoot
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cobracoach
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« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2012, 11:31:21 AM »

  I to am a voyeur on this site as I don`t like to get into internet discussions. I cannot believe, however that no one has brought up an obvious point about this whole discussion.
  It seems most of the debate in this thread is centered around wiping or not wiping between shots, would that be fairly accurate?
 
  In the 1970s a top competitor from Columbus Ohio named Ed Green got his hand scarred for life when he was trying to finish a Target before the end of a relay and quickly threw a charge without  cleaning the gun and the charge went off instantly, burning most of his hand.
  
As I shoot at Canal Fulton Ohio which has tons of history associated with it, here`s another one.  Tom Pike, one of the early fathers of the nmlra came over to Fulton for the 1st time at our big July 4th shoot in the 1930`s and was being shown how to shoot by Walter Grote (another founding father of the nmlra), when down the line a ways there was a big commotion, and here a guy was loading without cleaning and had his hand on top of the loading rod seating the ball and the rod and ball both went thru his hand apparently from smoldering embers in the breach igniting the powder. The story goes Walter looked at Tom and said "I bet you`ll never need to be reminded to clean between shots eh", and Tom said, "no sir!"

  I could be wrong but I believe at Friendship you HAVE to wipe between shots. Sorry to be long winded, but I can`t believe this has not been touched on yet.....      
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dagner
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« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2012, 01:11:28 AM »

 good reply  we get our knickers in a knott and forget reason
dag
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hlary
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« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2012, 08:41:02 AM »

you MUST learn to shoot BEFORE you can shoot to learn........
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LynnC
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« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2012, 12:50:42 PM »

It seams this thread ought to be split between the Bench Rest/Chunk Match Crowd where one has all afternoon to clean, load and shoot and the Woods Walk, Rondevous Crowd where wiping is an inconvenience and putting a smouldering dry patch down range is out of the question.

Both camps have developed accurate loading methods that produce the best results for their particular shooting situation.

Were I to take up Bench Match Shooting or Chunk, I'm sure I'd have to to become a meticulous bore cleaner between shots to be competitive.

As a woods walk style shooter, I work up my best thick wet patch (requires short starter) load at the bench and then Enjoy offhand no wipe shooting from there on out.

Two totally different shooting games being discussed here.  Maybe there ought to be a thread for each philosophy  Wink

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1Chunker
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« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2012, 03:47:37 PM »

I'm not sure that you can put it any better, Lynn. From early in this thread there's been this sort of thought that one side was right & somebody else wrong. Truth of the matter is that there is no right or wrong, just what works for you at the moment at hand. I can't imagine cleaning between shots at a woods walk or when squirrel hunting. Like most anybody else I do clean chunk barrels between shots.  Something that applies to such matters  is a little mind game  "if you believe that what you're doing helps your shootin......it probably does"
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jmdavis
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« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2012, 04:06:15 PM »

I wish that I knew as much about muzzleloaders as Griffith and Getz have forgotten. I bought Dutch's booklet. And I think that it was valuable.

As others have pointed out, much of the value lies in teaching the shooter to develop a system. A methodical, works all the time system. What I found reading Dutch was the same thing that I learned in the Physics lab or in computer programming. A properly developed system works.

As for wiping, if I have the choice I wipe between shots both for muzzleloaders and BPCR's. I do it hunting, I do it at the bench, I do it with the chunk gun, I do it with the flintlock fowler. It works for me and that is enough.

If I can't wipe, I like a wet patch (ballistol and water, windshield washer fluid, spit, commercial lube) for loading. 
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dagner
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« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2012, 02:34:49 AM »

GOOD POST LYNN . I COMPLETELY FORGOT ABOUT MY OLD METAL WOODS WALK TARGET DAYS. WE HAD 21 SHOTS.  YOU WERE RIGHT ALL OF US POURED POWDWER DOWN AND THEN LOADED A WET PATCHED BALL. OR THOSE WONDER LUBLE PATCHES WERE GREAT  FOR LOADING ALL DAY.WE WERE ACTUALLY CLEANING THE BORE AND LOADING AT THE SAME TIME  

YOU WERE RIGHT ABOUT BENCH CHUNK  MOST GUYS WIPED WTH COUPLE DAMP PATCHES THEN RAN A DRY ONE DOWN TO DRY THE BORE   MOST PEOPLE USED DRY TEFLON OR SCHULTZ  .THAT IS WHY BORE HAD TO BE SO CLEAN.   DRY PATCH  LOADING. THE OLD APPLES AND ORANGES COMPARISON.  2 COMEPLETELY DIFFERNT TYPES OF SHOOTING  

AS FOR PAUL SHOOTING SQIRRELS   HIS WIFE SAYS THAT THE ONLY SQIRRELS AROUND THEIR PLACE IS PAUL AND HIS BUDDIES HIDING OUT IN THE SHOP
DAG
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Daryl
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« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2012, 01:54:03 PM »

Totally correct, Lynn - thanks for your post.
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