Author Topic: Number of Lands/Grooves (Read 13127 times)

oldarcher · « **on:** September 02, 2012, 02:44:14 AM »

Hi Everyone,
I am trying to compose a list of Older and new Rifle Barrel Makers and specifically the number of lands and grooves that each maker prefers. I have remembered the following so far. I would appreciate any help in correction and additional makers names as well as the number of lands and grooves that they commonly used.

Getz 7
Rice 6 in small cal. 7-45 up
Colerain 6
Green Mountain 8
GRRW 7
H&H 7 corrected to 6
Sharon 8
DouglasXX 40 Cal 7 50 Cal 8
Oregon ?
Bauska 8
Goodoien 8
Rayl ?
Long Hammock ?
Hoyt 8
Large 40 cal 8 50 cal 7
Caywood 7
Dehass 6, special order 7

Thank you

Joe Schell · « **Reply #1 on:** September 02, 2012, 02:58:54 AM »

I have 2 Bobby Hoyt barrels, a 36 & a 45 and both have 7 lands and groves.

SCLoyalist · « **Reply #2 on:** September 02, 2012, 03:53:38 AM »

Douglas XX 50 cal, 8. Douglas 40 cal 7.

Wm Large 40 cal, 8.

Caywood 62 cal, 7

rsells · « **Reply #3 on:** September 02, 2012, 08:45:15 AM »

Below is some info I have on new old stock barrels in my shop:

H&H .54 number of groves is 6
H&H .50 number of groves is 6
H&H .40 number of groves is 6
H&H .29 number of groves is 6
Bill Large .50 number of groves is 7

Hope this will be of help.
Roger Sells

oldarcher · « **Reply #4 on:** September 02, 2012, 02:29:36 PM »

Thanks everyone....keep them coming please....

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #5 on:** September 02, 2012, 09:20:31 PM »

Old Dixie Gun Works, .45 cal., cut rifling, 4 grooves. Shoots pretty good.

Hungry Horse

Daryl · « **Reply #6 on:** September 03, 2012, 09:17:14 PM »

Goodoien .40 - 8 lands and grooves.

oldarcher · « **Reply #7 on:** September 03, 2012, 09:55:05 PM »

Thanks Daryl..
Please keep them coming...
Thanks

Daryl · « **Reply #8 on:** September 04, 2012, 12:00:56 AM »

Just measured my GRRW 14 bore (.69) rifle at 28 1/4 X 2 = 56 1/2" twist. I had always thought it was 60" or 66" but had never measured it prior to this. 7 lands and grooves.

Armi-San-Polo Enfield (U.S. Confederate Sapper's) Musketoon - 5 lands and grooves - 48" twist.

dagner · « **Reply #9 on:** September 13, 2012, 10:31:02 AM »

i went to guns rack and counted lands getz -griffith -ken bersen -godione and dehass all seemed to like odd numbers 7 but would make you anything you wanted .usualy recomended 6 if you di not like 7 from talking to a lot of the fine men ran bigger commercial batches 6 were commom because cheaper to make

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #10 on:** September 13, 2012, 03:28:08 PM »

Guys,

I use 7 grooves in my barrels, although most I make are smooth bore. Check out the discussion "making a cutter for rifling".

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=17991.msg168784#msg168784

With the cutter I use you have the cutter opposite the shoe which gives a groove opposite a land, and the resultant odd number of grooves. I think that if I tried an even number of grooves the shoe would ride on the opposite groove, thereby damaging the groove-to-bore intersection.

Also, with my rifling machine, the wood cam is cut for a 7 groove barrel and I do not wish to make another one. The discussion in gun building on the Fry brothers rifling guide shows that their machine could do either an even or an odd number of grooves. Unfortunately, I have not been able to locate their cutter head in the collection to see their design.

Jim

Don Stith · « **Reply #11 on:** September 13, 2012, 03:53:54 PM »

DeHaas' standard is 6. He will do 7 at an extra cost

Don Getz · « **Reply #12 on:** September 15, 2012, 06:12:56 AM »

Jim........I think you are correct about the 7 grooves. Most old barrels had seven grooves, the rifling head was supported on a land while cutting the groove on the opposite side.........Don

Paul Griffith · « **Reply #13 on:** September 17, 2012, 12:12:11 AM »

You might do the math on what the actual difference is between 7 groove & 8 groove as far as this issue of the head hitting against a land instead of a groove on the opposite side of the rifling head. I personally make the head .005 smaller than the bore diameter. So, you're looking for the difference between this radius & the bore radius as it relates to 1/16th of the circumference of the head if you're basing your calculations on 8 grooves. But it gets less as the helex will, depending on the rate of twist, do away with a portion of this by hitting on each end of the back of the rifling head as opposed to just the point of the head that is centered under the actual cutter. It gets down to pretty much nothing.

ironwolf · « **Reply #14 on:** September 18, 2012, 05:31:43 PM »

I gotta ask. Who cares. None of this matters as much as ball/patch/barrel fit or charge weight or twist rate. The load/paper/deer or whatever does not know how groovy your tube is.

Just wondering, KW

oldarcher · « **Reply #15 on:** September 23, 2012, 02:49:36 PM »

The reason, if one is really necessary, is to learn which barrel makers favor specific rifling. This may help to determine who did/did not make an unmarked barrel, and to increase the knowledge base of anyone who may build rifles, or may have interest in specifics. If you wish to build a correct bench copy of a old maker you probably would consider the number of lands/grooves in the original barrel and try to find a barrel that is similar. I have a preference, and I carefully search all of the forums to find various old contemporary barrels/rifles, many are not marked as to maker. The seller may claim a specific barrel maker and it would help to know which maker favored which rifling to help determine if the barrel is as claimed. Does it really matter?? Yes it does to me.

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #16 on:** September 23, 2012, 03:17:23 PM »

Guys,

1. A question for Paul Griffith: it would be interesting to see a photo of your rifling cutter, perhaps we could all learn something new. I was thinking that a head that is 0.005 smaller than the bore would give very little room for the cutting chips to go, chip clearance. With the cutter that is posted on the thread "making a cutter for rifling" the chips are rather large, much larger than filing chips/dust. There is plenty of clearance for the chips here. I oil the cutter, mostly to make these large chips stick to the rifling rod so that they can be removed after the stroke and do not remain to be dragged in/out and maybe scratch the bore.

2. A comment for ironwolf: I care. I like to make reproductions of the 18th c guns using original tools, methods and materials to a great extent (yes, I do have corrective lenses on my eyes and a smallpox vaccination, too). This leads to a 7 groove barrel, irregardless if this is the best, most accurate or whatever. Remember, that if we actually make an 18th c gun, that certainly 80% to 90% of the work is in the gunlock and barrel, alone.

Jim

Curt J · « **Reply #17 on:** September 26, 2012, 06:52:55 AM »

.45 caliber Numrich - 8 grooves.

Paul Griffith · « **Reply #18 on:** September 26, 2012, 01:55:23 PM »

While this isn't my head, it's close enough. There's a pocket containg the actual cutter that the chips remain in until they emerge from the end of the barrel & are cleaned out. So I clean out the chips & flood with oil to clean a bit more & shove it back thru the barrel. Also on mine there's a finger that slides into the head as it emerges that drops the cutter down for the trip back thru the barrel. On the other end it pops back up for the cut. I don't remember having a problem with a chip in years. 8 grooves

http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/images/rifling_head_small.jpg

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #19 on:** September 27, 2012, 02:35:16 PM »

Paul,

Thanks for the reply, now I understand how your cutter can be used with an 8 groove barrel. I guess mine could be made to work in the same way if I used a specifically made shoe for each barrel with the diameter 0.005 under bore diameter. But, I am too lazy for that! I have never made two barrels with the same caliber, so each one would have to have a specifically made shoe. The last few forged wrought iron barrels I have made have been calibers 0.503, 0.457, 0.508, 0.469, 0.565 and I am currently rifling a 0.513. If I were more energetic I could make an 8 groove barrel without damage to the groove by using your idea of closely matching the diameters, thanks for the great input.

However, the "show stopper" is the 7 groove wood cam on the rifling machine. That's something I do not plan to do again!

Thanks again
Jim

Don Getz · « **Reply #20 on:** September 27, 2012, 03:24:04 PM »

When Bob Paris built the rifling machine which we use in the shop, he was interested in copying old barrels. It had a
rifling guide to do a 1 in 48" twist, seven grooves, and he used coarse threads in the breech plugs....5/8x11, and 3/4x10.
I suppose the thinking of the old barrel makers was that they needed a land opposite the groove to support the rifling
head. There may have been more crudeness in the old rifling heads that they thought this was necessary, however, that
is not the case in today's barrel makers. We have stuck with the seven grooves since we are interested in reproducing
or copying old barrels, and it works just as well as six or eight grooves.......Don

Daryl · « **Reply #21 on:** September 28, 2012, 04:31:29 PM »

I notice Track has a Green Mountain: 56" twist .40 barrel for sale. I was not aware they made a 56" twist in .40 - I thought they were all 48".
Perhaps it's a mistake on the make or the twist rate.
GMT-40-IH-A barrel, .40 caliber, Isaac Haines 38" swamped , "A" profile, 1-56" twist, 3.7 lb, crowned, 5/8-18 thread . . . $194.99

JCKelly · « **Reply #22 on:** October 03, 2012, 11:29:08 PM »

Rayl light weight tapered & swamped .45, on Caywood Mountain rifle. 7 grooves. Couple -three years old.

Dphariss · « **Reply #23 on:** October 04, 2012, 03:25:28 AM »

Quote from: Daryl on September 28, 2012, 04:31:29 PM

I notice Track has a Green Mountain: 56" twist .40 barrel for sale. I was not aware they made a 56" twist in .40 - I thought they were all 48".
Perhaps it's a mistake on the make or the twist rate.
GMT-40-IH-A barrel, .40 caliber, Isaac Haines 38" swamped , "A" profile, 1-56" twist, 3.7 lb, crowned, 5/8-18 thread . . . $194.99

They changed it. I have one of the last 1:48 40s. Think its 4 years old or so.
Why is beyond me.

Dan

News:

Author Topic: Number of Lands/Grooves (Read 13127 times)

oldarcher

oldarcher

Daryl

oldarcher

Daryl

dagner

Paul Griffith

ironwolf

oldarcher

Paul Griffith

Daryl