American Long Rifles Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 23, 2014, 09:48:42 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

View the Most Recent Posts
View the ALR Mission Statement
View ALR Rules and Policies
Donate to ALR via US Mail or PayPal

+  AmericanLongRifles Forums
|-+  General discussion
| |-+  Gun Building
| | |-+  Stainless Steel Flintlocks?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Stainless Steel Flintlocks?  (Read 2996 times)
Hammer
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 78



« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2012, 03:58:45 PM »

J C Kelly, nice hot 'coal'?   Coal=carbon?  Steel wool=iron+carbon?   Could it still be the carbon in the steel filaments that is burning?   

Just mho.
Logged

Peter
Dale Campbell
Full Member
***
Posts: 237


« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2012, 04:25:01 PM »

The steel burns. Well, it oxidized really, really fast. Oxidation of steel gives off heat. Fast oxidation of steel gives off more heat. Rusting steel gives off heat, too. It's just harder to get warm by.
Logged

Best regards,
Dale
Pete G.
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1239



« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2012, 08:31:43 PM »

A stainless steel lock would be cool, but where would you find a black polymer stock to go with it?Huh
Logged
Bob Roller
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1781


« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2012, 09:03:10 AM »

I have had a request or two in years past for stainless steel lock plates
for caplocks but never heard of it for a flinter.
Now to the heart of this post. As some of you know,last Spring I had
some urinary tract/bladder problems that played hob with shop work
and recently,both myself and my wife had some sort of "viral respiratory
infection"that was like a cold on steroids and even with Doxycyclene was
hard to shake. I am behind on shop work and have lock orders and will work
as hard as possible and consistent with my idea about quality control to
get this work done,get paid and ship the locks.I am doing my best so rest
assured I haven't forgotten anyone.

Bob Roller
Logged
4ster
Full Member
***
Posts: 237



« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2012, 09:59:01 AM »

A stainless steel lock would be cool, but where would you find a black polymer stock to go with it?Huh

As Mark Elliot mentioned that would be Thompson Center   Roll Eyes
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/firearmDetails.php?ID=5049
Logged

Steve
Dphariss
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 7433


Northern I Corps Kill a Commie for your Mommy


« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2012, 10:10:13 AM »

Even alloy steels with chrome & molybdenum spark very poorly. 4140 for example. It will through harden but makes a dismal frizzen.
If you have a cheap 440 stainless knife try running it on a grinder and look at the "sparks".
Then try even unhardened high carbon steel like 1070-1095.
It will be evident why SS frizzens are not going to work.
Stainless, in general, has proven to be a poor material for firearms anyway and I sold off anything I owned with a SS barrel a couple of years ago.
416 and its modifications, is essentially the 12L14 of the stainless world, oversimplification perhaps but 416 barrels DO fail for no reason in applications with pressure levels similar to PRB rifles. It is a "free machining" material.

Dan
Logged

"American Girls and American Guys
Will always stand up and salute  Will always recognize
When we see Old Glory Flying   There's a lot of men dead   So we can sleep in peace at night   When we lay down our head"
Toby Keith "Courtesy of the Red White and Blue"
Dphariss
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 7433


Northern I Corps Kill a Commie for your Mommy


« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2012, 10:35:00 AM »

Jim,  I was trying not to be judgmental.  After all,  I don't know everything. Cheesy

One of the most glaring flaws of this place is people being afraid to be judgemental OR being hammered for being so in print.  The "don't be judgemental" thing stems from people wanting to do anything they want no matter how immoral or disgusting and then have other people who know better still accept them in society because to do otherwise would be "judgemental".  Its a form of name calling used to brow beat people into accepting immorality and now its creeping into gun building. It is possible to be PC to the point of stupidity.
Stainless steel FLs is a dumb idea. BP is not that corrosive, fouling buildup reduces reliability so it needs to be wiped or washed off anyway. Its not as though you can leave it with fouling buildup or use it without some lubrication.
Just because something is new and modern is not sign it will work in a given application or is even SAFE.

EVERYONE makes judgements everyday. We mentally judge the people we meet and deal with everyday. If we don't we are setting ourselves up for trouble.

Dan
Logged

"American Girls and American Guys
Will always stand up and salute  Will always recognize
When we see Old Glory Flying   There's a lot of men dead   So we can sleep in peace at night   When we lay down our head"
Toby Keith "Courtesy of the Red White and Blue"
FL-Flintlock
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2025



WWW
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2012, 12:01:34 PM »

The 17-4PH (S17400) alloy is the wrong material, at least for the frizzen with its very low 0.03% C content.  420 (S42000) with 0.15% C will take additional C sufficient to produce acceptable ignition in a FL if all is done correctly not only for ending content but also producing the required dilution.  Yes, it "can" be done but it makes no sense when one can simply run a standard production lock through a micro-PTA or CST process for a whole lot less time and cost.

The OP's question asked about a particular alloy, not discussion of historical relevance or personal opinion which are completely irrelevant to the OP's question but since such seems to be the primary concerns ... has anyone considered the possibility that the reason for choosing a low-corroding alloy may be because the guns will be used primarily for display/demonstration where they could not be afforded proper care & maintenance or perhaps on a ship or beach-front location with a highly corrosive atmosphere?  Besides, how many people could tell the alloy composition of equally polished specimens just by looking?
Mark
Logged

The answers you seek are found in the Word, not the world.
Bob Roller
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1781


« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2012, 12:38:43 PM »

How about a knotty pine stock with copper trim?

Bob Roller
Logged
JCKelly
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 727



« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2012, 03:17:51 PM »

Hammer, steel burns.

It is the steel burning that makes a nice glowing hot whatever.

#0000 steel wool, for the Politically Incorrect, makes nice tinder.

Or, just snap your flintlock over a piece of paper. Assuming you don't burn up the paper you will see little curly chips. Of steel. Eyes like mine may require magnification.

The work "frizzen" I understand came from the word "frizzle", which was the steel one used for making fire in general. It was a frizzle because the steel chips (that burn) are like frizzy hair.

Bob R, I really like your idea. With a good grade of pine one needn't even paint the stock.
Logged
FL-Flintlock
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2025



WWW
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2012, 08:36:13 AM »

Hammer, steel burns.

It is the steel burning that makes a nice glowing hot whatever.

#0000 steel wool, for the Politically Incorrect, makes nice tinder.

Or, just snap your flintlock over a piece of paper. Assuming you don't burn up the paper you will see little curly chips. Of steel. Eyes like mine may require magnification.

The work "frizzen" I understand came from the word "frizzle", which was the steel one used for making fire in general. It was a frizzle because the steel chips (that burn) are like frizzy hair.

Bob R, I really like your idea. With a good grade of pine one needn't even paint the stock.

In ambient atmosphere (approx 21% O2) steel does not "burn", if it did it could not be cast, forged, welded, ect.  Thus is why one is left with a pile of itty bitty pieces of magnetic iron dust when grinding Fe-base alloys.  The "frizzle" (properly termed "forks") is the carbon molecules oxidizing which is why the higher the carbon content, the more forks one will see coming off a grinding wheel which is the same results obtained when striking a frizzen with a flint, it's just a one-time shot instead of continuous as would be seen with a grinding wheel.  The balance of iron and other alloying elements in relation to the carbon content is what will determine the length of the straw before the forks appear as well as the amount and display properties of the forks themselves.  The little curls of steel shaved off by the flint are red-hot, partly from the friction heat and partly from the carbon molecules that have been released by the mechanical cutting action and ignited by the friction heat.  In the case of steel wool, it's high carbon content and small cross section easily allows the carbon to be liberated and consumed, reducing a wad of steel wool in ambient atmosphere will leave all but the carbon behind - burn a piece then run a magnet over what remains.

Ambient atmosphere reduction should not be confused with the rapid exothermic chemical chain reaction reduction seen when nearly pure oxygen is introduced to preheated steel in oxy-fuel cutting.  The preheat flame brings the temperature up to the point at which the carbon bonds will begin to break-down, when the pure (or nearly so) oxygen is introduced it produces the exothermic rapid oxidation process which will immediately cease when the oxygen levels drop below the necessary minimum to sustain the chemical chain reaction.  Different iron-base alloys react differently to oxy-fuel cutting irrespective of the carbon content where very low and very high carbon alloys require different techniques.  Cast iron alloys with >2% carbon will not readily oxidize as is seen with common steel alloys because the iron melts at a far lower temperature than the oxides so despite the plentiful carbon content, the iron melts away leaving the oxides to act as an inhibitor.  In very high carbon content steels the carbon in the kerf area is easily consumed but inhibition of the cut results from alloy matrix changes as a result of flame hardening adjacent to the kerf.  In the case of so-called "stainless" Fe-base alloys inhibition of the oxy-fuel cut is a result of the non/lesser oxidizing alloying elements which again can be easily overcome with common oxy-fuel equipment by simply utilizing the proper techniques.

Going back to the issue of flintlock ignition, there are a multitude of metal alloys that given the proper geometry and striking velocity the flint will produce shavings plenty hot enough to ignite the pan powder although said shavings will not show their thermal content as visible light.  Example is certain alloys like aluminum where there is no visible indication of the thermal energy given off as light but you'll certainly feel it as it burns a hole in your hide.  Point being, just because you can't "see" the heat, that does not mean it isn't there.
Mark
Logged

The answers you seek are found in the Word, not the world.
FL-Flintlock
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2025



WWW
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2012, 09:04:43 AM »


Stainless, in general, has proven to be a poor material for firearms anyway and I sold off anything I owned with a SS barrel a couple of years ago.
416 and its modifications, is essentially the 12L14 of the stainless world, oversimplification perhaps but 416 barrels DO fail for no reason in applications with pressure levels similar to PRB rifles. It is a "free machining" material.

Dan

Since the thread has thus drifted so far off-topic anyway ...

Nothing fails "for no reason", if such were the case the world would just crumble and we wouldn't be here.  There's a reason for every failure and in the case of alloys subjected to shock loading, be they carbon or stainless, the two most common causes are:
1. Poor distribution of the alloying elements.
2. Improper heat-treatment prior to being put in service.

Somewhat of an oversimplification but if one were to mix concrete grout and merely pour it over the aggregate, the resultant product will readily fail however, if the aggregate is thoroughly and evenly distributed throughout the grout mixture the resultant product will be very durable.  Same principle applies to metal alloys, if the elements are not thoroughly and evenly distributed throughout the mixture, it will fail.

Every machining/forming process introduces heat and/or stress into the base metal, failure to properly normalize the material following machining/forming operations will result in failure.

Doesn't matter what the failure is, there is always a cause for it and in this, as with many others, the particular alloy is not the problem, the processing of the alloy is the problem.
Logged

The answers you seek are found in the Word, not the world.
WadePatton
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1086


Tennessee


« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2012, 10:04:39 AM »

i'll buy that.

wrt stainless taking a stain...a while back in another pursuit i had mixed some cast parts which come in steel and stainless steel.  how to unmix?  yes a magnet identified some parts with very low ferric content, but not all, not even half.

so i thinks...hey this cold blue should bounce right offa the stainless (impart no color), or at least color much less.  Wrong.  It colored up nicely.

So i'm back to the salt-n-see method of ss/steel (small) parts differentiation.

OTOH in the junkyard sometimes i differentiate SS from Aluminum by touching the metal.  I didn't even realize how this worked until i thought about it...it's the thermal transfer/conductivity that triggers my response...which is similar to using touch to distinguish seasoned vs. unseasoned wood.  i digressed didn't i?  Well anyway, dryer wood feels warmer to the touch because the moisture isn't there that conducts heat away from your fingers...

And a carbon-fibre stock could be laid up at home...tubular titanium ramrod.  have to add weight back to balance the ugly bastard and keep it from kicking like a mule with a fly on his flank.
Logged

Hold to the Wind
JCKelly
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 727



« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2012, 07:43:04 PM »

Some of these posts amaze me.

Hey, I like that titanium ramrod. Titanium does burn like hell!  Just ask someone who machines Ti what happens when a barrel of chips catches fire.

It happens that iron oxide melts at a lower temperature than does iron itself. I first learnt this by watching molten scale drip off a white-hot ingot as it was removed from the soaking pit for forging.

In recent years I had occasion to quantify this. Mild steel melts around 2600 - 2800F, and (blue, magnetic Fe3O4 scale) iron oxide melts about 2500F. 

How to tell whether scrap is stainless or plain old steel?  Steel is magnetic. There are different kinds of stainless. Some are magnetic like steel, some are not, and some of which I will not speak are half-and-half.

The stuff Wife's pots & pans are made of is not magnetic. Well, maybe just a touch where it has been formed or bent. "Good" stainless utensils are sometimes marked on the back "18-8" or "18-10", i.e., 18% chromium 8 or 10% nickel. These are non-magnetic stainless, 304 being the common example.

Your local Coney Dog uses magnetic stainless knives & forks, as they are less expensive. Nickel metal is pricey these days. The better are sometimes marked 18CR, implying 18% chromium, no nickel. The stainless grades made with no nickel are magnetic, much like plain old rusty steel. Wife's good stainless carving knife & your Benchmade or Victorinox knife are magnetic stainless, no nickel (to speak of).

17-4PH stainless, which would make such a lousey flintlock, is magnetic.

Nice to know someone can tell aluminum from stainless by touch. Yup, the aluminum would feel colder, just like WadePatton says.

The day I learned to make my first forge weld in wrought iron, I also burnt my first iron, shortly thereafter.
Logged
JCKelly
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 727



« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2012, 07:52:56 PM »

Oh, yeah - the blue oxide of iron, Fe3O4, is itself magnetic, just like the metal iron. 

Google "lodestone"
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!