Brazing with a Turbo Torch

[Dennis Glazener]

Hi guys!
The buttcap made
Runar

Runar, Nicely done. What type of gas/torch did you use? I have a Mapp torch but it would never heat that large a piece of brass to brazing temperature!
Dennis

[runastav]

Hi guys, and thank you Keb and Dennis!
Dennis, I have used in years Turbo Torch made in U.S.A.
Runar

[Dennis Glazener]

I found a torch like yours at this link : http://store.cyberweld.com/tuexstprto03.html but before I order it I want to make sure it will do what I want.

Will this heat 1/8" steel/brass plate hot enough to braze with it? I currently have a Mapp gas torch with a straight tube (brand unknown) that will heat small parts hot enough but not anything like the buttplate you did for the Swiss rifle.

I assume that the rod laying on the vise in the photo below is what you used on this buttplate, if so what kind/type is it? I currently use 1/16th hard silver solder and its too small to suit me for larger jobs such as a buttplate.

Dennis

In Norwegian:

Jeg fant en lommelykt som din på denne linken: http://store.cyberweld.com/tuexstprto03.html men før jeg bestiller det jeg vil sørge for at det vil gjøre hva jeg vil.

Vil denne varmen 1/8 "stål / messing plate varmt nok til å lodde med det? Jeg har for tiden en Mapp gass lommelykt med en rett rør (merke ukjent) som vil varme små deler varmt nok, men ikke noe som buttplate du gjorde for swiss rifle.

Jeg antar at stanga legging på skruestikken i bildet nedenfor er hva du brukte på denne buttplate, i så fall hva slags / type er det? Jeg bruker for tiden 1/16th hardt sølv loddetinn og det er for liten til å passe meg for større jobber som en buttplate.
Dennis

[Mark Elliott]

Dennis,

I have that very same torch.   It doesn't get hot enough for me to braze anything.    It will work with silver solder, but not brass.    I have to use my forge to braze.   Of course,  I am brazing steel or iron.   It wouldn't do to put a brass part in there.   It would end up a blob on the bottom of the forge.     I really should get an oxy acytelane torch, but I haven't had any work I couldn't do another way.    Also,  I am not very good a gas welding.   I am much better at electric welding.    I would prefer to get a MIG welder one of these days.    Of course,   a good one starts around $700, not including the gas rental.

Mark

[Acer Saccharum]

That torch would work with low-temp silver bearing braze, which looks like what Runar has.

I have some that melts around 900 deg F, flux coated, made by Eutectic.

oops, just read the package: 1130 deg F. Eutecsil 1828 XFC. it also has cadmium in it, so it works great, but is nasty to breathe the fumes from soldering.

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis,

I have that very same torch.   It doesn't get hot enough for me to braze anything.    It will work with silver solder, but not brass.    I have to use my forge to braze.   Of course,  I am brazing steel or iron.   It wouldn't do to put a brass part in there.   It would end up a blob on the bottom of the forge. Cheesy    I really should get an oxy acytelane torch, but I haven't had any work I couldn't do another way.    Also,  I am not very good a gas welding.   I am much better at electric welding.    I would prefer to get a MIG welder one of these days.    Of course,   a good one starts around $700, not including the gas rental.

Mark

That's the problem I have, I can silver solder small items with my Mapp Torch but nothing as large as a buttplate (unless I put my little single burner Coleman stove under it to help out).

I hate firing up my coal forge just to braze a buttplate and I can't cost justify buying a MIG outfit for no more that I would use it. I have one of the flux wire welder (no gas) and it does not weld worth 2 cents. I suspect its because I don't use it enough. There is an expiration date on the flux wire and its out of date.

Dennis

[halfstock]

I have and sometimes use a torch that is a single tank acetylene (sp) torch that roars like a frieght train  but gets the job done. I got it from my deceased soninlaw and he was a hvac man and that @!*% thing works like a charm.

[JTR]

Dennis,
I have a similar Turbo Torch, and using a gas named Mapp/Pro I can braze ( with a brass brazing rod) 1/16" steel flatbar together easily. I don't have any 1/8" steel, but tried to braze a 1/4" round bar to a 3/16" flat bar, end to end, but with no success. It just wouldn't get the steel hot enough.

For my welding projects, several years ago I bought a thing called 'The little Torch', and with the largest tip I can weld steel up to about 1/4" thick, with some patience. The torch with tips and hose, a set of oxy/act regulators and a set of bottles cost about $350 at the time. Bottle refills are about 50 bucks, but they last me a year of more between refills, so it's pretty economical in the long run.

John 

[Mark Elliott]

It looks like none of us have enough use for a welder to get something good.   I wonder if you can rent a MIG Welder by the day including gas?

[Mark Elliott]

I did a quick check and Sunbelt Rental rents a 115V 138A MIG welder for $47/day, $125/week.    That doesn't sound like a great deal to me.   If I needed one, it would be to weld a barrel or such and I would need a lot higher power than 138A.    I had looked at buying a 180A Lincoln Electric from Lowes for $669.     That would be a bare minimum for me.   If I was going to rent something,  I would want to rent a professional outfit.   I couldn't find anybody local renting those.

[bgf]

Dennis,
Tractor Supply (assuming you have one) had a reasonably priced small oxy/acetylene torch set (Hobart Medium Duty = $199).  My store now carries a variety of gas as well, so it isn't such a hassle.  I've been needing it...

What is the issue with your flux-core wire welds?  I can run a nice weld on 1/16" steel with mine, when I'm in the zone, but normally it is just safer to tack and stitch with thin stuff.  Even a low/slow setting can easily burn through thin stuff.  With a buttplate (with a 1/16" thick comb for example), once you get a somewhat solid weld from the outside, you can build/fill the joint from the inside, then go back on the outside and fill any holes.  Once you get to 1/8" steel, welding is pretty straighforward.  Use spatter spray or other shielding and have a grinder ready !  Even minimal use, e.g. tacking something together to braze or solder it is pretty handy.  Also, if you think the wire is "stale", Lowes sells a one pound spool (Lincoln, I think) for $10.

Mark,
Most of what you pay for in welders is power and duty cycle.  Nothing we do requires a lot of either, in my opinion, unless you want to do a lot of other stuff with it.  Never mind, I just actually read "weld a barrel" -- isn't that what forges are for?

[Mark Elliott]

Dennis,

You are welcome to come over and use my gas forge any time you want.   It just sits there unused most of the time.   All I ask is to leave me a couple of dollars for the gas and make sure it is off before you leave.   It wouldn't take you more than 10-15 minutes to braze a iron butt plate or trigger guard.    

Mark

[Mark Elliott]

When I said weld a barrel,  I meant weld on a section as in restoration work where you want to do minimal damage to the antique part.    If I was making a barrel,  I would use my forge.   The MIG welder would be mostly for repair and restoration work.   Otherwise,  I could do everything the old fashioned way with what I have.   

[docone]

To effectively braze with a torch like that one, on a part of any size, use a back flame.
To do that, I put my parts on either an heat pad, or I use a piece of wood.
The wood carburizes, this reduces the atmosphere, and the charcoal suppliments the heat. I have had little luck just brazing a piece on a pad, or brick.
The wood for the pad, any flame can be put out while brazing by putting borax on it.
I have done a lot of pieces that way, including my Jukar Kentucky Rifle trigger guard.
That one took some doing. I was unfamiliar with that type of brass. I had to use silver solder, hard, and fuse the brass.
I did that one on an heat pad. It actually came out ok.

[Rolf]

 I use only propane and I braze and hard solder everything from 0.01 silver wire (silver filigree work) to 1/8 thick steel sheet metal.

Whats important when choosing a torch is not only how hot the flame, but also the amount of heat(energy) delivered.  The flames on my torches have the same max temperature, but the amount of heat=energy delivered per minute varies. Small torch for delicate work, big torch for heavy work.

My biggest torch is the sievert cyclone and it's made for heavy duty brazing.
http://www.sievert.se/default.asp?locId=7&langId=1&pageId=6&areaTypeId=3&areaId=26
I have hard soldered 1/8" steel with high temp. silver solder (750 Celsius) with this torch.

I have also done tests with forge welding 1/8" steel scraps with it. Building a brick tunnel around the parts you want to heat, greatly increases the max temperature.

Best regards
Rolf

[tim crowe]

If you use mapp gas instead of propane, will make a world of difference for getting more heat.  The vice your using works as a heat sink to draw off heat. Just something to think about.

The coffee can forge has really helped to make parts  quickly without lighting the  outside coal/charcoal forge .I can get the  mapp forge to high orange heats.

http://www.paragoncode.com/shop/micro_forge/  I made mine with a triple wall stove pipe lined with blue clay.   Hope it helps, it sure is nice to make parts quick and not have to mess around .

[runastav]

Hi guys!
The silverbraze I use- BrazeTec CoMet 5600 U  2.0mm. Working temperatur approx. 650`C
My TurboTorch working temperatur is 1260`C
I use my stick weld on steel when I can, have also a Acetylen/Oxygen but the propan and acetylengas here in Norway is weeeeeery expensive so if I can stickweld
Runar

[doug]

   you might want to try making a small retort to contain the heat and give the work a higher temperature.  When I only had a propane torch, I made one using two fire bricks as sides and concrete asbestos board on the bottom and top and back.  It worked after a fashion.  I currently have a oxy propane torch mostly for cutting but works well for silver soldering.  So far I have not  been able to weld with it.  The big advantage is that I don't have to pay rental on an acetylene tank

cheers Doug

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis,
Tractor Supply (assuming you have one) had a reasonably priced small oxy/acetylene torch set (Hobart Medium Duty = $199).  My store now carries a variety of gas as well, so it isn't such a hassle.  I've been needing it... Smiley

What is the issue with your flux-core wire welds?  I can run a nice weld on 1/16" steel with mine, when I'm in the zone, but normally it is just safer to tack and stitch with thin stuff.

I think my problem is because the wire I had in the wire welder was probably 7 or 8 years old. I tried to weld something (forget what) with the last of it and it just made a mess! Back when I was using it on my 57 Chevy to replace floor pans/metal panels the wire was fresh and it did pretty decent work. I have a fresh un-opened roll that I may try on later.

Mark,
Thanks for the offer but I can fire up the coal forge and do what brazing I need or do like I did last week placed my little Coleman single burner stove under the buttplate and hard silver soldered it with my Mapp Torch, works great that way even if a jack leg arrangement!

Tim,
I have one of the little insulating brick forges that I made, it works well for small items such as forging out a tang but its not large enough to properly position a buttplate in.

Thanks to all for their input, I just saw Runar's torch/brazing work and thought it might be the answer to my needs.

Dennis

[wmaser]

Will this heat 1/8" steel/brass plate hot enough to braze with it? I currently have a Mapp gas torch with a straight tube (brand unknown) that will heat small parts hot enough but not anything like the buttplate you did for the Swiss rifle.
[/quote]

Large pieces can be silver soldered by using two mapp gas torches, one on either side of joint. I've "brazed" several butt plates and trigger guards using three grades of high heat silver solder and two torches.

Low melts at 1240, flows at 1355
medium melts at 1275, flows at 1360
High melts at 1365, flows at 1450

[JBlk]

They make a small torch outfit that uses a regular size propane bottle and a bottle the same size of oxygen.They will get hot enough to braze with.They are hard to adjust and you go through oxygen pretty fast but they are easy to transport and quick to use.They do not compare to a full size set in heat value or ease of use.I have three full size torch sets that I have bought at auction sales, and I don't think that I have more than a hundred fifty in any of them.You can usually find them at either farm auctions or garages that are going out of business.

[wmaser]

If I recall correctly, an eight minute supply of oxygen for that small kit costs about fifteen bucks.

[davec2]

I have and use several different torches, but for this type of work I like to get the parts up to the melting temperature of the braze as quickly as I can.  The longer it takes to bring up the heat the more likely you are to have oxidation that will interfere with or completely stop the joining of the two parts.  For this, and many other things like casting gold and silver, I use a Prest-O-Lite torch.  It burns acetylene and air.  Here is what it looks like:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#gas-torches/=kap4h5  (click on the "Air/Acetylene Torch Kits" category)

You can sometimes find them on e-bay and at garage sales.  Mine is 60 years old, but I bought a spare not long ago and, unlike many other things, the new torch is EXACTLY like the old one.  Same materials, same quality, same interchangeable tips.

I also use one of these for much smaller work.

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Basic-Smith-Little-Torch-All-Fuels-System-with-Five-Tips/500057?pos=1

The smallest tip is so small that I can weld two needles together crossed through the end paper of a recessed filter cigarette without burning the filter or the paper (if I work fast !)  I use this for hard soldering very fine gold chains that need to be repaired or altered.

I do also use a Victor oxy-acetylene rig and propane torches for other jobs.

[David Veith]

I would try making a oven out of some fire brick. ho;d some of your heat in. Or Go over to my welding tank and do it 
David

[kutter]

I use a Harris acetylene torch. Bought as a kit many years ago they still offer them. Includes everything but the tanks. Even a cutting torch head which I've never used.
I bought my own tanks,,the shorter, smaller size (J ?).  You can rent them also.
They last me a long time as I don't do continuous welding but instead use it for soldering, brazing and some welding as needed.
The 'rosebud' heating tip will eat up the gas quickly but that's another thing I don't use hardly ever.

What a nice thing to have that high temp and instant heat for even hard soldering when you need it and not have to stand there with a propane torch hoping it'll rise to the occasion.  A few seconds with O/A and you're done.

Propane is relegated to soft soldering for the most part now. Though I do use the O/A for that if the parts are heavy. You have to watch and take care you don't quickly over heat them with it though.

Here's some  on EvilBay. The outfits seem to be available for $100 and less.
Plus the tanks and gas of course.
But you should be able to set yourself up for a decent price
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=harris+torches
Other makes are available,,I just chose Harris as it's the one I happen to have.