Collecting Contemporary Longrifles - some questions

[pathfinder]

As long as deceptions are not being made,patination can be very attractive,and at times even enhance an item,as long as that's the reason.

A perfect example is the work of one of my favorite artist's,Chuck Burrow's. His stuff if left in brand new condition,while being top drawer in quality and execution,would be rather boring to look at all shinney and new.

Another item is a Trade gun,Northwest gun's specificly,are really enhanced by the addition of some wear patterns and tack's. And I'm sure that even though the Indian's took good care of their firearm's,they more than likley looked a bit used in very short order.

And no matter how hard I try,nothing I own stay's perfect very long! And belive me,I've tried!

I would have one heck of a time adding "patina" to one of Jud Brennan's or Jim Kiblers gun's! Can I get an AMEN!

[T.C.Albert]

But of course you can....AMEN !
tc

[smylee grouch]

Are you kidding? I would love to own one of their guns and be able to put some patina on them. 

[Robby]

You don't think some of  Jim Kibler's guns already have an artificial patina?
Robby

[PPatch]

I believe Mr Kibler has a knack for applying a finish that invites a closer look. I do not feel there is anything artificial or any attempt at aging in the sense of this discussion. His finishing imparts a very appealing warmth to a gun that aids in achieving an overall harmony. Another who can achieve this is Taylor Sapergia, his finishing and the overall appeal of his work is top tier. When it comes to aging who can beat Louie Parker? His work has a studied affect that imparts a "story" and leaves one wondering at a guns history even though you know it is brand new, all one has to do is apply their imagination while enjoying the obvious craftsmanship. All of these contemporary makers deserve the term artist to my mind and you can bet if I was in the same room with their work I would want to enjoy the visual and tactile pleasure of handling, and learning from, their creations.

dave

[axelp]

who out there buys pre-washed jeans? or those retro shirts from old navy or what used to be banana republic back in the 80s? whether its wanna-be or just an appreciation for a little soft warmth from prior use, there is a huge market for aged stuff.

K

[JDK]

To me, the whole argument is a little ridiculous as it's all about taste, and as they say, "there's no accounting for it."

If a case can be made against aging guns then it can as easily be made for over finished guns.....even going the extra mile to create "warmth".  Finishing a typical American longrifle to appear as if it were turned out in the finest English or French shops is as absurd.....especially the majority of guns produced during war years.  A gun finished like that isn't in keeping with the original guns.  Is it?

I guess we can make an argument that octagon barrel channels are going too far also.  Or how 'bout well inlet lock internals....in the English fashion?  And don't dare polish parts that don't show!

Personally, when it comes to emulating early American work, I feel overfinished guns are more unappealing than anything.....some seem dead or lack soul, or worse....manufactured.

If you build, build to YOUR standard or those of your customer.  This isn't a guild system.  We have no masters to please.  For most of us here this is still a hobby.  Some people just need to get over themselves and......Enjoy, J.D.

[Robby]

Well, I just asked a question without any judgment. I like Jim Kibler's work. The first gun That I remember him posting here DID have an artificial patina in the manner of an oxidized varnish with a lightening in the obvious wear areas. I liked it, and even asked him about it. His work doesn't need any defense from me or anyone else. People should do what they like in the manner that reflects how they see things at the time they are doing it. Things change and so does ones approach toward making anything. People that are so imbedded and dogmatic about how things should be done should also post their work so it can be criticized in a manner which reflects their rutted ideas.
Robby

[Majorjoel]

Another master that defies the ages is our own Eric Kettinburg. I have to admit that I have seen a few of his fine rifles and if he had not signed them, I'd swear they were made in the 18th century. I personally found them to be very appealing. I will also admit that IMHO each rifle made is a statement unto itself. Some I like very much and others maybe not so much no matter who the maker is. There is no resting upon the laurels of one's past work. I have known modern gunsmiths who like the early makers had their prime when they produced products that were top of their form. In later years it became evident that poorer eyesight and the pitfalls of ageing caused a  degraded form to the fineness of earlier work. This thread reminds me of a class I took way back in highschool. It was called "Music Appreciation".  We have been holding class called "Longrifle Appreciation".  No one can fail this coarse.

[eagle24]

I will say this......Dan.  To completely discount aging, you rule out some of the best contemporary gun builders and artisans in existence today.  I get your arguement, but again....I think you are wrong.  I appreciate the work and talent of many contemporary builders who incorporate aging into their work.  I see aging as a skill just as much as the skill involved in building an architecturally correct rifle.

[Dean2]

Strictly my opinion and all others are more than welcome to theirs and to pursue whatever they like. Artificially aged guns are an attempt to make them look old, well used etc. This is a purely fictional story. While some may enjoy the appearance and effect, it is a work of pure fiction,. There is not one real or true story that is being told by the patination of a new gun.

It is like painting an exact copy of the Mona Lisa. Very pretty but it is a work of fiction and does not have the stories to tell that being painted by the master and surviving 400 years imparts to the original. That said, few of us could afford the original so an exact copy may be the best we can arrange if we want to gaze on the Mona Lisa daily.

To each his own, I don't think there really is a right or wrong here, and another's choice in this area costs those of opposing views absolutely ZERO. Own your own opinion and follow your heart, but otherwise, live and let live.

[Keb]

I'm nobody in this contemporary long rifle world but I have an opinion on the subject and I like the aged look on everything, including guns.
I built a kitchen table to put some antique Windsor chairs under. Should the table look like it was just delivered from "Ethan Allen's"? Nah. I don't think so. However, it does set in a kitchen with a gas range, running water and an electric refrigerator. :/
I don't shoot like I use to (eyes) or camp as primitive as I once did (arthritis) but all my camp stuff has a legitimate "patina" going back only 20 or 30 years. My gun's do too. Painted camp furniture gets knocked around and used hard in all sorts of weather. Guns get bumped up against things while being transported and used. Aging happens. Sometimes it gets a little help. :/
I'm not ready to argue the new/old or wannabe points, I'm not anal about it, I just like what I like.

[Don Getz]

For all of you that have been in this game for few years, have you ever looked at a Herschel House gun?  Personally, I have
never seen one I didn't like.   I am not a real student of southern guns, but, are his guns a "copy" of a style common to a
particular area in the south?  I am asking because I don't know.   There is one person that collects good contemporary guns,
he usually has a display of them at the CLA show.   He has guns that are pristine, and guns that are made to look old, but,
they are all good guns.   He has a desire to own what he feels are great guns,  or, as the Pa. dutchman would say "he knows
what good IS".   I've been aroound for a few years and have seen so many guns.  How many of you can say you sat in Jack
Haugh's shop and held that fabulous wheelock that John Bivins created.  I feel honored to know that I was a part of this gun,
we made the barrel from a damascus blank that was pounded out by a guy up in the Poconos section of Pa.  I can also recall
a guy from Canada that had a great Alexander Henry rifle that he built, had it in a case and would put white gloves on before
handling it.  Just shows, a place for every kind...........Don

[B Shipman]

In my opinion-best answer.

[Bob Roller]

Don,
The "Guy from Canada" with the superb Alex Henry copy was the late Ted Girodat
who was one of the finest craftsmen EVER at the guns he undertook.The Henry was one
example,a Rolling Block Creedmoor,a Rhein Schuetzen and an 1877 Sharps was another.
Roger Weir and I were Ted and Donna's house guests in 1987 during an International
Muzzle Loading event at Kitchener,Ontario where the Girodat's lived and we were wined and dined like
old time royalty.Ted's personal gun collection would warp your mind.Unbelieveable is all I can say
and the accouterments and old time ammo was fabulous.He had a cased Gibbs long range muzzle loader that appeared
to be unfired and a Rigby the same condition without the case. I tried to buy it but he didn't want to sell it.We spent the
money later restoring our 110 year old house.
Ted was criticized for making the Alex Henry "too good" by some NMLRA memeber,maybe the club president but to me,
that was sour grapes or the Green Eyed Monster talking.
The late Don Brown was also a house guest along with Roger and I but I will say no more.

Bob Roller

[Don Getz]

Thanks for coming up with that name Bob, his stuff was good, as were the Henry's that Don Brown made.  But, on the other
hand it just wouldn't be right to "age" a copy of a great English gun.   Mark Silver is also one who likes to do pristine work
and it would be extremely difficult to do a critique of his guns.   If I were fortunate enough to win one of these mega million
lotteries I would have a fabulous contemporary gun collection, it would have both kinds of guns, pristine and aged.  Ageing
does not make a good gun bad.   For many years I owned a super Bob Harn rifle, it was aged as only Bob can do, and it was
a great gun.  I never built any really great guns, but I was kind of happy with the "staple" gun I finished early this year, and
am glad it is in good hands..........Don

[Bob Roller]

Don,
I can take $600 in parts and make the very best $40 gun ever!
I enjoy woodwork but with locks and triggers to be made for both
our people and now Holland and Germany,I have consigned my
current gun making to "some day,maybe".Like you,if I ever hit a
Megagazillion$ lottery I would certainly try to buy the best contemporary,
and SHOOTABLE rifles I could find.Seeing as I don't play the lotteries,'that too will remain a dream
along with a "J"Duesenberg and  Packard "12".

Bob Roller

[Acer Saccharum]

What you like, dislike, is completely personal. You may not get to decide what is right for someone else. This discussion goes back a long time, probably before the Romans, who had this in their repertoire:

De gustibus non est disputandum is a Latin maxim meaning "There is no disputing of tastes"

[Jim Kibler]

But also, there's no disputing that some have little taste.   I look back to when I started and the things I thought were pretty good seem to miss it oftentimes now.  But even then, I of course wanted at least a little respect.  It's been said here before, but oftentimes we don't realize how little we know.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Boy, that's a mouthful Jim!!  I more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.  It's like a never ending quest...the Holy Grail of rifle smithing.

[Dphariss]

who out there buys pre-washed jeans? or those retro shirts from old navy or what used to be banana republic back in the 80s? whether its wanna-be or just an appreciation for a little soft warmth from prior use, there is a huge market for aged stuff.

K

I used to get new clothes once a year to start school.
In HS there was a dress code. Show dressed like a biker, street ho or a street urchin they sent you home.
I grew up in a different time.
I am wearing a pair of "shop" pants with a tear in the double knee and I do run to the hardware store in them. But if I go to church or  shopping the worn stuff stays in the house. I am wearing a shirt that has started to show white at the cuffs etc. Not the old. Its now a shop shirt.
I detest prewashed clothing. Its service life is 1/2-2/3s for the "stone washed" $#@* and paying 30-50 bucks for an item burns me as well.
But like I said I grew up in a different time when mothers would not allow kids out in ragged or dirty clothing since it reflected on the entire family and especially on HER. Patched was OK if they were clean....

Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

From the Field and Stream article on Hershel House: http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/hunting/2013/04/hershel-house-guns-kentucky-flintlock

When he first started making these guns, “I caught $#*! for it,” he recalls. “People said I was building fakery guns, that a new gun ought to look like a new gun. But I kinda like it, and it turned out that a whole bunch of other folks kind of liked it, too. So I’m glad I never listened to those folks.”

Keyword: 'like'

Focus on what you like, not on what you don't.

[Ian Pratt]

Focus on what you like, not on what you don't.

  Really?  I disagree. It's obvious to most that a builder ought to study what he finds appealing - a particular school of rifles, the work of one builder, the color scheme of a rifle that really grabs his attention, a really nifty rear sight, etc. etc. -  and just as important (if not more important) to ask himself "Why do I find this appealing?". Asking yourself "why?" can lead to both a greater understanding of your appreciation, and to finding new avenues in the creative process.

  But it can also be perhaps equally beneficial for a builder to study that which he does not find appealing, and also to ask himself "why do I NOT like this?" Well worth doing. It can be much easier for us to completely dismiss something that we "don't like" rather than to break it down and find what we individually regard as it's merits and faults.   

[Wolfeknives]

Focus on what you like, not on what you don't.

  Really?  I disagree. It's obvious to most that a builder ought to study what he finds appealing - a particular school of rifles, the work of one builder, the color scheme of a rifle that really grabs his attention, a really nifty rear sight, etc. etc. -  and just as important (if not more important) to ask himself "Why do I find this appealing?". Asking yourself "why?" can lead to both a greater understanding of your appreciation, and to finding new avenues in the creative process.

  But it can also be perhaps equally beneficial for a builder to study that which he does not find appealing, and also to ask himself "why do I NOT like this?" Well worth doing. It can be much easier for us to completely dismiss something that we "don't like" rather than to break it down and find what we individually regard as it's merits and faults.   

That is a very profound and wise post Ian. It applies to many areas in our lives.
I had hoped for some insights when I started this thread, and have certainly received them. It has helped me to look at collecting with different eyes. I can now appreciate and enjoy some ageing, but still have trouble with the heavy distressed look. But who knows where my tastes will be as I mature as a collector.
Wolfgang

[Acer Saccharum]

Ian, I am agreed that I can learn from what I don't like, and try to figure out why. This would be a good exercise for me. It's the mirror to 'why I like' something. Yin yang, etc.