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Author Topic: Hawken stock  (Read 4043 times)
redheart
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« on: April 10, 2013, 12:28:51 PM »

I need a stock for a late style Hawken project.
Who makes a high quality historically correct pattern?

Thanks guys!
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2013, 12:30:54 PM »

Don Stith.
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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Don Tripp
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2013, 12:33:51 PM »

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/903/1
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Herb
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2013, 12:24:42 AM »

I was at Doc White's place Wednesday and handled his pattern stock of the Jim Bridger Hawken, which he cut from the original Bridger Hawken when he had it at the GRRW in 1975.  He said it was accurate to 1 /16", allowing for sanding.  This is the stock that Track of the Wolf sells.  They don't get any better than that.  I am just completing my copy of the Bridger Hawken and have access to 24 3x5 black and white photos of the original, plus a tracing and measurements made at Green River Rifle Works (which Doc White owned), plus his pattern stock, and color photos.
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Herb
rsells
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2013, 10:28:10 AM »

Just sent you a group of photographs of a rifle I made a few years back using Tracks Bridger stock.  I have used the pattern several times with good results.  This rifle used a straight taper barrel and really holds good for freehand shooting.  I haven't used one of Don's stocks, but have looked at them in detail, and they are great as well.  The hard part of any Hawken build is getting the hooked breech, lock and mortis areas correct.  Once you work through that part of the rifle, you will have smooth sailing.  Good luck with your build.
                                                                                        Roger
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Hawken62_flint
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2013, 08:46:04 AM »

Got my Hawken stock, pre-carved from Pecatonica River Longrifle Supply.  I really like the guys there and as best I can tell it is pretty true to the original pattern, although I am definitely no expert.  Of course if you read Baird's book, no two were exactly alike anyway.
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2013, 12:37:09 PM »

Tho' it's true there are subtle differences from rifle to rifle, it is important to have the overall architecture.  I see contemporary efforts that have lock panels that are way off, hump in the tang area, slab sided forearms, too much wood here, too little there, and on and on.  It's important when recreating a Hawken rifle, or a Bucks Co. or any other style, that we study as much as we can and understand what the rifle is supposed to look like.  And it's unlikely we're going to get it on the first try.  Ask me how I know that.
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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Bob Roller
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2013, 01:17:11 PM »

I don't think there was ONE that was alike.Tom Dawson often
said that the best anyone,including himself could do was make
a presentable and hopefully identifiable Hawken type.

Bob Roller
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WB Selb
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2013, 03:48:16 PM »


redheart,

I have built literally dozens of rifles using the TOW Jim Bridger pattern stock; it makes into a nice rifle and is easy to build but, the butt plate is not correct for a authentic Bridger rifle. If you want a more authentic rifle, but with considerably more work, the Don Stith patterns are the way to go.

WB Selb

www.Hawkenrifles.com
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JTR
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2013, 07:31:29 PM »

WB Selb,
Nice rifles you have there!

John
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John Robbins
Mtn Meek
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2013, 11:25:29 PM »

I need a stock for a late style Hawken project.
Who makes a high quality historically correct pattern?

Redheart, I second the recommendations for TOTW Bridger pattern Hawken stock.  Most of the work of getting the right shape and architecture of a Hawken has already been done for you.  As Herb says, this stock pattern has an excellent pedigree.

There are a couple things you may want to consider, though.  IIRC, you were interested in building a copy of the Hawken rifle described in Chapter 15 of Fifteen Years In The Hawken Lode.  I enlarged some pictures of that original Hawken to life size to compare to a few of the available pre-carves.  These first two pictures compare a GRRW Hawken to the life size original.  Note, this is the same stock pattern as TOTW's.



Next is one of TOTW Bridger pre-carve stocks overlayed on the photo.


The good news is that the TOTW Bridger stock matches the shape of the original, especially in the butt stock and comb area.  It's hard to get a good photo of it, but when I overlay the TOTW stock onto the blowup of the original, the comb and the rest of the stock line-up near perfect with the original.  The bad news is that the original Hawken has an unusually long forearm, almost 2" longer than the TOTW stock.

Two other shortcomings with the TOTW Bridger stock that could be overcome:  (1) The butt plate that the TOTW stock is cut for is different than the one on the original.  The trigger pull on the original is 13" and the TOTW stock is roughly 14", so there may be enough wood left to make a different butt plate fit.  (2) Another minor issue is the TOTW stock is pre-inlet for the Ron Long designed lock, so you would be locked into using it.

This next photo shows a Tiger Hunt Hawken stock as another option.  It is just rough shaped and still has plenty of wood to get the right shape.  You would need to check with Tiger Hunt to see if they could make you one with a forearm at least 2" longer than their normal pattern.  You might even want them to leave the forearm square.  Just have them cut the barrel channel and drill the ramrod hole and shape from lock panels back.




The Tiger Hunt stock will allow you to put whatever lock and butt plate on it that you want.


Someone suggested the Pecatonica River Longrifle Supply Hawken stock.  They make a good pre-carve.  When I compared one I have to the enlarged photo of the original, the comb didn't seem to be high enough.  Plus you still have the issue that the forearm isn't long enough.



Hope this helps.

Phil
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Phil Meek
Bob Roller
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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2013, 07:47:13 AM »

Those precarves look good.You are not locked into the Ron Long/Davis
pattern of lock.I make a "Carson"lock that is a bit larger but more money
than the Long/Davis and only the hammer in my lock is a casting.
IF anyone is inerested in an upgrade on this project my E mail is
<bobroller@frontier.com>

Bob Roller
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Dphariss
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« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2013, 09:38:26 AM »

The Bridger and Johnson Hawkens are pretty late too late for the true mountain man era.

This is something indicative of the Fur Trade J&S rifle, though as Bob stated there is not really fixed pattern.
I tend to like the earlier rifles with a little less wood of them.

This rifle is likely 1830-1835.
TOWs buttplate is a little off and is not "early" as the state on the website.
It should look like this. But again there was a lot of variation...



Dan
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When we see Old Glory Flying   There's a lot of men dead   So we can sleep in peace at night   When we lay down our head"
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Herb
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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2013, 02:57:52 PM »

MtnMeek, great job on those comparisons.  Dan, thanks for the butt plate photo.  Here is Greg Roberts' tracing of the Bridger Hawken at GRRW in Nov. 1975. Note that the butt plate is pinned to the toe plate.

Here is his photo of the cheek piece and butt plate.

Here is Track's Bridger butt plate.  It is the most accurate out there, the main difference is that the original has a sharp corner at the tang whereas TOW's has a radius- which I filed square.  Phil Meek can elaborate on this feature of the Bridger Commemorative Hawken.

Greg's tracing of the Bridger Hawken.  You can enlarge your screen and see that the farthest right note says "muzzle not cut square". (His notes say ramrod tapers to .270 at rear.  This is a mistake.  Two of the employees at GRRW told me it was 1/2" inside the lower forestock, I thought it was 7/16 (.440), but it is really just under 1/2").

In this photo you see that the left side of the muzzle is not worn.  It is not square.  I think this barrel was longer and that Bridger, who was a blacksmith or at least had a blacksmith shop at Fort Bridger, cut the barrel shorter to make it handier to use.  That is a great job of filing the rifling.  Doc White says the lands are filed down to make those notches, but the grooves are also filed away, back about 3/4" deep.

The Bridger Hawken.  I measured the heel to hammer screw and then hammer screw to forend tip, and that distance is almost exactly the same- and the Bridger rifle has about a 13 1/4" length of pull.  Many stocks now, or rifles built, have long trigger reaches.  TOW's great Kit Carson full scale drawing has a 14 5/8" LOP, great for gorillas, maybe.  The heel to Hammer Screw distance is 15.75" and HS to front of forend tip is 17 3/8".  Just more grist for your mills.
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Herb
redheart
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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2013, 04:31:12 PM »

 Smiley Awesome info guys and I thank you all for the time and trouble.
This info will not only be a great help to me but perhaps to many others.
My only issue with the TOTW pre carved Bridger is that I will be using the Bob Roller Gibbon style lock and a 1" non tapered Douglas barrel for this particular project and I guess that stock can't be made to work.
TOTW's stock that's not inletted for lock and tang doesn't appear to be the Bridger style.
For my other project with the tapered barrel I'll definitely use this advice, but I'd also like to use a Roller/Gibbon lock lock so the pre inlet stock still may not work.
Because of my lock preference TOTW stocks may just not work.
Can I perhaps get a critique of the TOTW non inletted Hawken stock and how does their Carson stock measure up to the original?
 
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Mtn Meek
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« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2013, 06:57:40 PM »

TOTW's non-inlet Hawken half stock is basically the same as, and probably supplied by, Pecatonica River Longrifle Supply.  The same stock is available from Muzzleloader Builder Supply and Jedediah Starr Trading Co.

TOTW has this same stock in-let for the Ron Long lock, triggers, and cut for butt plate and includes it in their so called Kit Carson parts set.  Unfortunately, their Kit Carson parts set is not faithful to the original. 

The original Kit Carson rifle in the Masonic Lodge collection in Santa Fe is a late Sam Hawken rifle like the Jim Bridger Hawken that Herb discusses above.  Both were built with cast butt plates, cast trigger guards, cast nose caps, and likely cast breech plugs.  These parts tend to define the shape of the stock, so the Kit Carson stock is likely very similar to the Jim Bridger stock.  If you wanted to build a reasonable copy of the Carson Hawken, start with TOTW's Bridger stock.  If you wanted to build as close a copy of the Carson Hawken as possible, get one of Don Stith's Kit Carson parts set.

http://www.donstith.com/kit_carson.html

One caution about pre-inlet stocks, you need to stick the the component parts they were inlet for, or as Bob Roller points out, slightly larger parts, or you will end up with gaps between the wood and metal.

In elaborate on Herb's comment,
Quote
Here is Track's Bridger butt plate.  It is the most accurate out there, the main difference is that the original has a sharp corner at the tang whereas TOW's has a radius- which I filed square.  Phil Meek can elaborate on this feature of the Bridger Commemorative Hawken.

GRRW's agreement with the Montana Historical Society to build the Bridger Commemorative Hawken prevented them from selling copies of the Bridger rifle or calling anything they sold a Bridger copy.  To satisfy this restriction, they had their butt plate cast with a curve on the inside where the crescent joins the comb.  On the Bridger Commemorative, they filed this square and on their late S Hawken rifles they left it rounded.  The forearm on their late S Hawken rifle was longer than on the Bridger Commemorative, also.  GRRW never used "Bridger" in any of their advertisements or catalogs.  I believe it was TOTW that coined the term "Bridger pattern" for the stock pattern that Gary "Doc" White traded to them after GRRW closed.  Collectors like myself have picked up the term to describe the Hawken rifles that GRRW made after 1976 because, other than the butt plate and the forearm, they are very similar rifles.
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Phil Meek
Dphariss
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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2013, 08:11:06 PM »

Given the rod pipe spacing from muzzle to upper pipe I think its unlikely that the rifle has ever been shortened.


Dan
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"American Girls and American Guys
Will always stand up and salute  Will always recognize
When we see Old Glory Flying   There's a lot of men dead   So we can sleep in peace at night   When we lay down our head"
Toby Keith "Courtesy of the Red White and Blue"
redheart
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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2013, 11:10:43 PM »

Mtn. Meek,

Kind Sir,
I went on the Don Stith site and he makes no mention of which lock his Carson Hawken is fitted for, but it is fitted for a tapered barrel, didn't the Carson Hawken have a straight 1" barrel. Apparently he only supplies complete kits but not stocks or other parts.
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Mtn Meek
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« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2013, 01:23:18 AM »

Redheart,

I think you read his description too fast.  He lists a "Davis Hawken lock (not included)".  He is referring to the Ron Long designed lock that RE Davis is currently making and selling.  Some of his parts set have an option of inlet for Davis Hawken or L&R Hawken.  You have to buy the lock separately.

KIT CARSON HAWKEN
NEW MODEL

    STOCK: Maple
    Barrel:  1 1/8 to 1 taper 54 & up
    (Getz or deHaas) 31"(original) to 34"
    Davis Hawken lock (not included)
    Trigger: Custom Bob Roller
    Furniture: Iron
    Base Price for this premium parts set: $750

I haven't seen the Carson Hawken in person, so I can't speak from personal knowledge.  I have seen others state that is has a tapered barrel.  It is hard to tell looking at the pictures in James Gordon's book.  Gordon shows pictures of the muzzle of both the Carson and Bridger rifles.  The dimensions of the bores and the width across the flats are the same in the two pictures.  If they are about the same caliber, then both barrels have the same dimensions.  If the Carson is a smaller caliber than the Bridger, then its muzzle diameter could be smaller also.  I don't think it is a 1" straight octagon, either 1-1/8" straight octagon or 1-1/8" straight taper, though the taper could be slight.

These don't answer your question, but here are some other interesting pictures of the Kit Carson Hawken as well as a series of a copy being built as part of a school project.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tsjcroostersnatchers/sets/

Phil
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Phil Meek
oldarcher
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« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2013, 06:55:44 AM »

MtnMeek, great job on those comparisons.  Dan, thanks for the butt plate photo.  Here is Greg Roberts' tracing of the Bridger Hawken at GRRW in Nov. 1975. Note that the butt plate is pinned to the toe plate.

I have studied and built Hawkens for 35 or so years, and have seen these drawings before, but I completely missed the butt plate being "pinned" to the toeplate. Do you know if the pin material was iron or (?) brass? I assume it was iron but since I missed the pin I sure could have missed something else.
The biggest problem with inletted stocks is the inletting may force incorrect overall shape. I would rather work a precarve that has the barrel channel cut and the damn ramrod hole drilled than one that is inletted. The most noticeable problem with precarves is a "hump" behind the barrel, that has to be sanded to give a much flatter appearance and graceful feel.
The beautiful rifle that MtnMeek has shown is really a nice example of what I mean by graceful.
Thank you for the information.
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Bob Roller
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« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2013, 07:01:40 AM »

The Davis lock is not bad and readily available.My version of the Carson lock is
more money and mostly not readily available.

Bob Roller
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Don Stith
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« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2013, 08:05:06 AM »

The original Carson Has a 1 1/8 tapering to 1 1/16 in 31 1/8 length. Bob Rollers lock is the only one I know of that is  correct dimensionally. I use the Davis because of availability even though it is a tad undersized. I leave the lock panels sized for the bigger lock. Harold Robbins made his locks the same size as the original Carson.  Finding one of those is a little harder than getting one from Bob.
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Herb
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« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2013, 11:02:03 AM »

Oldarcher:  Here is Greg Roberts' tracing.  Can't read the dimension, but I think it is 1/8" steel pin.  Carl Walker, who worked there, told me they took the BP and toeplate off in one piece, staying pinned together.

You can see the pin at the toe.

The barrel was 1.175 at the breech and 1.125 at the muzzle.  Carl Walker said "I don't think you could call that tapered, you could make that much difference with a file."
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Herb
redheart
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« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2013, 01:13:12 PM »

So, it looks like the Carson barrel has a 1" 1/16 to 1" 1/32 taper which is technically a taper but perhaps not detectable to the naked eye. It appears at least to me that If one were to build a Carson Hawken either a straight 1" barrel or 1" 1/8 to 1" taper would be as close to the original as you'd need to get.

 As for my dilemma in trying to find a pre carved accurately dimensioned Hawken stock with a 1" barrel channel and no lock inlet a good friend told me to try Tiger Hunt stocks, I took a look and I believe that this is the way to go.

I thank you all kindly.
Because of you alot of great info came out of my one insignificant question!  Grin
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okawbow
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« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2013, 01:59:08 PM »

I don't want to hijack your post, but I noticed in the picture of the Carson Hawken, that the wood is not stained, but the color is in the varnish. Is that typical of Hawken guns? I have made several violins, and since the 1400's, violins makers have used colored varnish and do not apply stain directly to the wood.

Maybe most of the reproductions are wrong?
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