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Author Topic: Hawken stock  (Read 3718 times)
Mtn Meek
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Posts: 46


« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2013, 06:57:40 PM »

TOTW's non-inlet Hawken half stock is basically the same as, and probably supplied by, Pecatonica River Longrifle Supply.  The same stock is available from Muzzleloader Builder Supply and Jedediah Starr Trading Co.

TOTW has this same stock in-let for the Ron Long lock, triggers, and cut for butt plate and includes it in their so called Kit Carson parts set.  Unfortunately, their Kit Carson parts set is not faithful to the original. 

The original Kit Carson rifle in the Masonic Lodge collection in Santa Fe is a late Sam Hawken rifle like the Jim Bridger Hawken that Herb discusses above.  Both were built with cast butt plates, cast trigger guards, cast nose caps, and likely cast breech plugs.  These parts tend to define the shape of the stock, so the Kit Carson stock is likely very similar to the Jim Bridger stock.  If you wanted to build a reasonable copy of the Carson Hawken, start with TOTW's Bridger stock.  If you wanted to build as close a copy of the Carson Hawken as possible, get one of Don Stith's Kit Carson parts set.

http://www.donstith.com/kit_carson.html

One caution about pre-inlet stocks, you need to stick the the component parts they were inlet for, or as Bob Roller points out, slightly larger parts, or you will end up with gaps between the wood and metal.

In elaborate on Herb's comment,
Quote
Here is Track's Bridger butt plate.  It is the most accurate out there, the main difference is that the original has a sharp corner at the tang whereas TOW's has a radius- which I filed square.  Phil Meek can elaborate on this feature of the Bridger Commemorative Hawken.

GRRW's agreement with the Montana Historical Society to build the Bridger Commemorative Hawken prevented them from selling copies of the Bridger rifle or calling anything they sold a Bridger copy.  To satisfy this restriction, they had their butt plate cast with a curve on the inside where the crescent joins the comb.  On the Bridger Commemorative, they filed this square and on their late S Hawken rifles they left it rounded.  The forearm on their late S Hawken rifle was longer than on the Bridger Commemorative, also.  GRRW never used "Bridger" in any of their advertisements or catalogs.  I believe it was TOTW that coined the term "Bridger pattern" for the stock pattern that Gary "Doc" White traded to them after GRRW closed.  Collectors like myself have picked up the term to describe the Hawken rifles that GRRW made after 1976 because, other than the butt plate and the forearm, they are very similar rifles.
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Dphariss
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Northern I Corps Kill a Commie for your Mommy


« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2013, 08:11:06 PM »

Given the rod pipe spacing from muzzle to upper pipe I think its unlikely that the rifle has ever been shortened.


Dan
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redheart
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Posts: 64


« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2013, 11:10:43 PM »

Mtn. Meek,

Kind Sir,
I went on the Don Stith site and he makes no mention of which lock his Carson Hawken is fitted for, but it is fitted for a tapered barrel, didn't the Carson Hawken have a straight 1" barrel. Apparently he only supplies complete kits but not stocks or other parts.
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Mtn Meek
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Posts: 46


« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2013, 01:23:18 AM »

Redheart,

I think you read his description too fast.  He lists a "Davis Hawken lock (not included)".  He is referring to the Ron Long designed lock that RE Davis is currently making and selling.  Some of his parts set have an option of inlet for Davis Hawken or L&R Hawken.  You have to buy the lock separately.

KIT CARSON HAWKEN
NEW MODEL

    STOCK: Maple
    Barrel:  1 1/8 to 1 taper 54 & up
    (Getz or deHaas) 31"(original) to 34"
    Davis Hawken lock (not included)
    Trigger: Custom Bob Roller
    Furniture: Iron
    Base Price for this premium parts set: $750

I haven't seen the Carson Hawken in person, so I can't speak from personal knowledge.  I have seen others state that is has a tapered barrel.  It is hard to tell looking at the pictures in James Gordon's book.  Gordon shows pictures of the muzzle of both the Carson and Bridger rifles.  The dimensions of the bores and the width across the flats are the same in the two pictures.  If they are about the same caliber, then both barrels have the same dimensions.  If the Carson is a smaller caliber than the Bridger, then its muzzle diameter could be smaller also.  I don't think it is a 1" straight octagon, either 1-1/8" straight octagon or 1-1/8" straight taper, though the taper could be slight.

These don't answer your question, but here are some other interesting pictures of the Kit Carson Hawken as well as a series of a copy being built as part of a school project.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tsjcroostersnatchers/sets/

Phil
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oldarcher
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Posts: 112


Never alone


« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2013, 06:55:44 AM »

MtnMeek, great job on those comparisons.  Dan, thanks for the butt plate photo.  Here is Greg Roberts' tracing of the Bridger Hawken at GRRW in Nov. 1975. Note that the butt plate is pinned to the toe plate.

I have studied and built Hawkens for 35 or so years, and have seen these drawings before, but I completely missed the butt plate being "pinned" to the toeplate. Do you know if the pin material was iron or (?) brass? I assume it was iron but since I missed the pin I sure could have missed something else.
The biggest problem with inletted stocks is the inletting may force incorrect overall shape. I would rather work a precarve that has the barrel channel cut and the damn ramrod hole drilled than one that is inletted. The most noticeable problem with precarves is a "hump" behind the barrel, that has to be sanded to give a much flatter appearance and graceful feel.
The beautiful rifle that MtnMeek has shown is really a nice example of what I mean by graceful.
Thank you for the information.
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Bob Roller
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« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2013, 07:01:40 AM »

The Davis lock is not bad and readily available.My version of the Carson lock is
more money and mostly not readily available.

Bob Roller
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Don Stith
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« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2013, 08:05:06 AM »

The original Carson Has a 1 1/8 tapering to 1 1/16 in 31 1/8 length. Bob Rollers lock is the only one I know of that is  correct dimensionally. I use the Davis because of availability even though it is a tad undersized. I leave the lock panels sized for the bigger lock. Harold Robbins made his locks the same size as the original Carson.  Finding one of those is a little harder than getting one from Bob.
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Herb
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« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2013, 11:02:03 AM »

Oldarcher:  Here is Greg Roberts' tracing.  Can't read the dimension, but I think it is 1/8" steel pin.  Carl Walker, who worked there, told me they took the BP and toeplate off in one piece, staying pinned together.

You can see the pin at the toe.

The barrel was 1.175 at the breech and 1.125 at the muzzle.  Carl Walker said "I don't think you could call that tapered, you could make that much difference with a file."
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Herb
redheart
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« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2013, 01:13:12 PM »

So, it looks like the Carson barrel has a 1" 1/16 to 1" 1/32 taper which is technically a taper but perhaps not detectable to the naked eye. It appears at least to me that If one were to build a Carson Hawken either a straight 1" barrel or 1" 1/8 to 1" taper would be as close to the original as you'd need to get.

 As for my dilemma in trying to find a pre carved accurately dimensioned Hawken stock with a 1" barrel channel and no lock inlet a good friend told me to try Tiger Hunt stocks, I took a look and I believe that this is the way to go.

I thank you all kindly.
Because of you alot of great info came out of my one insignificant question!  Grin
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okawbow
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Posts: 63


« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2013, 01:59:08 PM »

I don't want to hijack your post, but I noticed in the picture of the Carson Hawken, that the wood is not stained, but the color is in the varnish. Is that typical of Hawken guns? I have made several violins, and since the 1400's, violins makers have used colored varnish and do not apply stain directly to the wood.

Maybe most of the reproductions are wrong?
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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Posts: 6413



« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2013, 04:14:37 PM »

I'd go out on a limb here and say that the Hawken boys did it both ways.  I've seen very late Hawken rifles or at least images of them,, where the varnish has worn and the maple shows through, but on most if not all of the rifles in Gordon's great book, the wood seems to be worn evenly, as if it were stained prior to finish applied.  Even rifles with considerable wear and repair seem to have been stained first - then oiled.
From my experience, Ferric Nitrate stains very well and is difficult to remove.  Coloured varnish is the opposite.
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D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com
Bob Roller
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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2013, 04:59:45 PM »

Who or where is Tiger Hunt Stocks??

Bob Roller
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redheart
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Posts: 64


« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2013, 05:47:06 PM »

Bob, Grin

It's                      Tiger Hunt
             Curly Maple Gunstock Blanks
                      & Precarves
                     P. O. Box 379
                    Beaverdale, PA 15921
                    Phone # 814-472-5161
                   www.gunstockwood.com

This info came to me from Hawken Guru Mtn Meek!
Best regards,

Redheart
          
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Bill Ridout
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Posts: 80


« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2013, 07:54:49 PM »

One thing to keep in mind. It doesn't matter whose precarve you use, it's going to be cut to use that horrible cast entry pipe. using that piece of s**t pipe will add 1/8 inch to the depth of the forestock. doesn't sound like much, but it destroys the way the forestock is supposed to look.
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If the noise does not improve upon the silence, then let the silence prevail.
Thomas Jefferson
redheart
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Posts: 64


« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2013, 09:42:55 PM »

Bill,

Are you really telling me now that I have another problem to work out!
Thanks to you now I'm seriously contemplating suicide!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cry
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