Author Topic: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.  (Read 7394 times)

2lookindown

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ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« on: April 16, 2013, 07:44:59 PM »
will a 32 cal. shoot ffffg better than fffg.... I'm lookin for a cleaner burning and maybe less grain... What do you small cal shooters use ??

Offline William Worth

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2013, 08:03:39 PM »
I would never use 4F as a propellent, just for prime.

There are many other variables like; bore condition, powder choice, lube, charge volume, patch fit that influence fouling.

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2013, 08:25:54 PM »
 I wouldn't use FFFFg as a main charge. I don't even use it for priming. FFFg works fine as either.

Offline hanshi

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2013, 08:36:57 PM »
3F is perfect in small bores and 4F is perfect for prime.  4F in the bore will NOT be a good idea.
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Offline Ken Prather

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2013, 09:04:25 PM »
I have heard of only one instance where someone (not me) used FFFF-- as the main charge in a very small caliber cap and ball revolver.

I have always followed the rule that FFFF is NOT to be used as a main charge in anything.

K
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Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2013, 11:35:37 PM »
  The little North American Arms .22 caliber revolvers do use FFFFG as a main charge, but the amount is miniscule. Would not use FFFFG in a full size revolver.
                                                             Dan

2lookindown

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2013, 04:11:56 AM »
HMMM, I just figured it would work with less of a charge and easy cleaning....

Offline leadslinger62

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2013, 03:31:00 PM »
  Extremely important warning about the accidently double charge!! It can and does happen.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2013, 03:46:31 PM »
The problem comes in loading errors. FFFF is capable of "weird" pressure excursions that fff does not create, at least in small capacity BPCRs. Might be OK in small bore RB guns like 30 and under.
But then there is the loading error thing that goes unnoticed and the gun is fired with too much powder and/or lead, is double loaded powder ball-powder ball. It happens....
As I think I have stated before powders finer than FFF were used in revolvers. But the charges were light maybe 10-12 grains in a 38 S&W.
Apparently paper and foil cartridges for Percussion revolvers were loaded with a fine powder "revolver" if what I have read in correct. Since the paper or foil tended to reduce the powder capacity. But the powder capacity is fixed in revolvers anyway. Then remember that some BP cartridge revolvers in the 30-40 grain capacity range shoot best with FF even then.
The reliable guide line is FFF in most common bore sizes with the round ball if the rifle likes the granulation. F can produce very low velocities with the RB since the ball has so little load inertia. FF may work extremely well and is worth testing even in a 45 cal. in the quest for ultimate accuracy.
Elongated projectiles are better off with FF or F which due to their higher inertia they use more efficiently.

Dan
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 03:48:01 PM by Dphariss »
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xring2245

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2013, 05:50:03 PM »
I went to using Swiss 3F in all my small calibers, from .32 to .45.  Fouling is almost eliminated and cleanup is very fast.  Swiss 3F also works great as a priming powder.  Stay away from 4F for anything other than priming.

James

Offline pathfinder

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2013, 03:22:56 AM »
Just waiting for some idiot using it for a main charge,getting himself or somebody else hurt...."Well,I read somewhere where you could use it,the guy even had data!

This is an accident waiting to happen. I've known Roundball he in the cyber world for a longtime and he is a very knowledgeable guy! I just dont think it's a good idea to put this out there. It's info that us Grey beard's can appreciate,new guy's...not so much!
Not all baby turtles make to the sea!  Darwinism. It’s works!

roundball

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2013, 03:37:46 AM »
No sweat.
And I agree there's plenty of stupid people on the Internet who have reading / comprehension problems.

In spite of the lengths I went to when making structured posts clear enough to anyone with a brain, I want no part of anyone hurting themselves or someone else because they're so stupid they can't read / comprehend basic language. 
You know, like the same expectations that exist for anyone who plans to use a firearm in general.

I'll delete the posts myself.

2lookindown

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2013, 06:14:35 AM »
Wow, I just ask a question and some of you guys are calling me and idiot... I know it can be used in light loads and small cals. I just wondered if any other idiots have ever used it ... Thanks for the info guys....

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2013, 02:21:32 PM »
Do not use 4 F as a main charge.  Even for light loads or small caliber guns
TC
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Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2013, 03:49:01 PM »
I just wondered if any other idiots have ever used it ... Thanks for the info guys....

I confess to having fired, unintentionally,  a few rounds with 4F as main charge (25 gr) out of a 36 flint pistol.   I forgot I had both a can of 4F and a can of 3F in my shooting box, and pulled out the 4F by mistake.    I knew something was wrong or different because, surprisingly, the ignition didn't seem as fast and the recoil not as much  as usual.     The old Lyman Black Powder Handbook from the early 80s did list muzzle velocity and pressure data for revolvers with 4fg:   40 percent increase in pressure, maybe 15 or 20 percent increase in muzzle velocity when using 4Fg rather than 3Fg.   In a flint gun,  that extra pressure can get vented out the touchhole.   In a percussion gun, I could see it resulting in more of a tendancy for hammer blowback and putting stress on internal lock components.     Nowadays, as you may have noticed, conventional wisdom says reserve 4F for priming, no doubt unanimously from both gun and powder manufacturers.

Going back to your post that started this thread, what sort of fouling issues are you experiencing and with what load (of 3F)?   SCL

Offline pathfinder

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2013, 04:25:13 PM »
2lookindown,please dont think we were impling that YOU are anything but responsible. Your asking the question proves that. It's others out there,and having been around firearms for better than 55 years,that will take and twist info to suit their needs.

It's the "Some is good,more is better" crowd that we have to worry about. We have to be on guard 24/7 these day's as gun people!
Not all baby turtles make to the sea!  Darwinism. It’s works!

Offline Daryl

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2013, 11:51:37 PM »
will a 32 cal. shoot ffffg better than fffg.... I'm lookin for a cleaner burning and maybe less grain... What do you small cal shooters use ??

My .32 squirrel rifle gets 35gr. 3f GOEX with a patched .311 cast or .320" cast balls - both with the .0215" ticking patch as it's accuracy load.  These are easily loaded with a short starter and the rifle's 5/16" hickory rod.

Last time out, I had the wrong patches (.0235") and only the .322" 0 Buck Hornady boxed shot, which is a bit hard. It stills shot cleanly and although tighter loading, I was able to shoot the trail.

Even when using Track's Mink Oil or pure Neetsfoot Oil for patch lube, I've never had a fouling problem - shoots as cleanly as a ML can. Easy loading and good shooting - no wiping needed during a day's shooting.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 11:52:05 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Ron T.

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2013, 01:28:48 PM »
It appears that 2lookindown is a bit "touchy"... too bad.  He wasn't being called an "idiot", but it appears he thought he was.

The advice given was "spot-on"... given fairly & without malice.  Some folks just have thinner skin than others, I guess.  While he may not like it, he got some good advice which will keep him from gettin' hurt if he listens to it.

Oh, well... all y'all tried, eh?  :)


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Offline little joe

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2013, 05:16:11 PM »
If a person asks a question in a polite manner they deserve a polite anwser.Don,t make this board like some others. L.J.

Offline JTR

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2013, 07:55:03 PM »
Wow! It appears that we have some guys here that feel they have to be on guard 7/24, and go to great lengths with structured posts to prove that they’re such super hot shots that not only can they answer the question, but be rude to a new guy while answering his simple question.

What a less than great welcome, whether he be thin skinned or not!

Make a note to myself not to ask a question aound here!

Oh well… eh, yourself,

John
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 08:07:46 PM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline hanshi

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2013, 10:50:32 PM »
Wow, I just ask a question and some of you guys are calling me and idiot... I know it can be used in light loads and small cals. I just wondered if any other idiots have ever used it ... Thanks for the info guys....



Don't feel singled out, 2ld; it happened to me as well.  I asked a simple question, got attacked then a brawl broke out among the others.  I thought it was funny but evidently there were some simmering resentments that needed addressing, anyway.  Don't take personally as it is usually not really meant that way; and in this case I'm quite certain it is not. 

Getting back to the question, the problem with 4F is that it tends to dribble out vent holes.  And while modern bp guns would probably be quite safe with light loads (at least), 4F just doesn't seem to offer any benefits over 3F.  Use 3F in the bore and prime with 4F and find your accuracy load.  Good luck and keep us posted.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

2lookindown

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2013, 04:00:28 AM »
Wow, I just let a post sit to see if the "IDIOT" was going to get in the ring and get with it and now I'm the "COWARD OF THE COUNTY"   ;D ;D  I can take all the pressure you guys can load this mule down with... I can stir snit better than most and love the challenge.... I have been wrapped up in the hospital with my dad... We done lost 2 Uncles and a 1st cousin last month and it don't look good for Dad... But he's from kentuck and thats what makes me hard headed... So lets get with it.... YEE HAA !!!!!!

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: ffffg verses fffg in a small cal.
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2013, 05:39:08 AM »
Here is another angle re 4F.  It seems to pack differently. Probably due to the difference or lack of graphite coating ?   In the .36 my friend tried it in, accuracy was no where as good as 3F .  There just didn't seem to be much point in using it [ 4F ]