Author Topic: Hornady PA Conical Bullets  (Read 12339 times)

1911tex

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Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« on: June 30, 2013, 10:51:21 PM »
Anyone tried these?  How do they compare to patched ball?
New from Hornady. A 240 grain conical bullet designed for use in 1:66 (slow) twist barrels. Now legal in PA flintlock season. A great alternative to patched round balls. Prelubed, ready to load. 50 bullets per box.

They look like the old Buffalo Ball-etts

« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 11:25:59 PM by 1911tex »

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2013, 01:20:35 AM »
Havent tried them and dont plan on trying them. The 50 cal round ball is vastly underated when it comes to performance on game. JMHO

jamesthomas

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2013, 02:07:06 AM »
Havent tried them and dont plan on trying them. The 50 cal round ball is vastly underated when it comes to performance on game. JMHO

 Yep, a .50 cal. round ball will get the job done every time. Conicals are for people who want to get modern rifle performance out of muzzleloaders, Just like shooting a blankety-blank.

Offline volatpluvia

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2013, 03:30:08 AM »
Okay, gathering my thoughts here.
I was born and raised in Pennsylvania, and spent most of my adult life there.  I come from a hunting family.  I hunted for several years for deer with modern cartridge firearms before trying muzzleloaders.  When I did I had magnumitis.  I wanted to get numbers on paper with ML's comparable to modern guns.  I actually felt like a second class citizen because in PA I had to use a flintlock.  Once I started to build my own flinters from high quality parts and especially after I saw what a round ball did to a deer, I lost all that.  Flinters are much more fun.  But I ramble.
I used TC Maxiballs in my factory guns, Lymans.  Then it was discovered that some rifles allowed the maxi to slide forward off the powder while being carried in the woods muzzle down.  So the state banned them.  We were forced to use round balls, which is why I discovered just how destructive they were on animals the size of deer.
I know that many so called ML hunters in PA are always petitioning the state to let them use more modern MLers and bullets, etc.  So it would seem that they have succeeded once again to change the primitive season just a little more toward the modern ML.
If you wish to use them, go ahead.  I really don't think there is any real advantage over patched round balls.  But, IF those ballets give any indication of sliding forward like the old maxis did, they will also be banned again.  count on it.
volatpluvia
I believe, therefore I speak.  Apostle Paul.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2013, 04:28:00 PM »
 Bullets in muzzleloaders have two problems, the afore mentioned bullet movement, and the trouble loading successive shots. With no patch to seal the bore, the powder often doesn't burn completely, and the foulings build up very quickly, and often prevent the following bullet from being completely seated on the powder charge. Patched round ball are very effective, and don't suffer from these problems, when a proper size ball, and good serviceable patch lube is used.

                   Hungry Horse 

Offline Daryl

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2013, 04:17:31 AM »
When a barely stabilized bullet strikes an object, animal or otherwise, it immediately becomes unstable. The results vary, from veering off from any 'stiff' medium, like tensed muscle, bone or sinew, or merely tumbling, which then results in much the same effect. Thus, the barely stable bullet cannot be trusted to carry through in a straight line.  What this means to us as far as killing power, is that we might have a broadside shot at a moose, elk or bear, but the bullet turns on a rib, leg bone or spine and "upon striking a bone turns and courses through the soft parts of body instead of smashing those bones asunder creating a most grievous wound".

The reason for the story above, is that Winchester, in it's 'wisdom' rifled it lever action rifles similarly to the muzzle loaders of the say, ie: slow twists. Thus, the Winchester Rifles became "A laughing stock" on the Plains.  They were known as rifles that "could not kill a buffalo". Mainly the problem was due to the slow twists and light weight slugs. They'd not travel in a straight line after impact and the light slugs lacked penetration. Thus, they turned, or tumbled. If turning, they missed the lungs, turning on a rib and running down into the guts- if they tumbled, they lacked penetration as a tumbling bullet stops quickly in tissue.

I am a very firm believer, that a person should learn to load and shoot a round ball in a muzzle loading rifle and that the round ball is the best projectile for killing North American Game from a round ball twist - ie: 48" and slower. I do not believe in trying to make a sub-small calibre 'better' by using a longer projectile.  This does not make it more effective than a round ball in it's proper game range, but makes it a wounder of larger game for the reasons noted.

Deer are easily killed and the failure of straight line penetration and tumbling does not seem to be a detriment in them. In harder to kill species, please use an appropriate calibre and a round ball.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline crawdad

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2013, 03:14:44 PM »
Well, where is this guy from? Tex may need the range that the conical can give him. Or he may be planning to go out west to hunt bigger game than a white tail where he definitely needs the range.


Tex, I've tried the ball-ets but I noticed that my rifle was throwing them all over the place and was not impressed with the accuracy out of my 1 in 66 rifling.

But, Good luck with yours!!  
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 04:49:51 PM by crawdad »

1911tex

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2013, 09:03:44 PM »
O.K fellas, I take your thoughts very seriously.  Patched ball it is as in the past.  Thanks !

Offline Old Ford2

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2013, 06:27:53 AM »
Tex,
You just can't sway these old geezers.
Fred
Never surrender, always take a few with you.
Let the Lord pick the good from the bad!

Offline crawdad

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2013, 03:21:43 PM »
There was a show, kind of like a survival type show that aired on the Discovery Channel, I think, for a short while, that had one or two guys hunting with Lyman Great plains rifles that nailed a Buffalo with a big minie. It was impressive. You could tell however that they were 'rookies' hunting with muzzleloaders by how their next hunt went while tracking a pronghorn. But that shot on that buffalo was impressive, one shot blew the buffalo's heart to pieces and he dropped like a sack of potatoes. 

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2013, 05:23:11 PM »
  Were they using the  "hunter" version of the Great Plains rifle? They have a fast twist exclusively for slugs. Would explain the effectiveness of the rifles---then again, this was T.V. where miraculous events are common.
                                                    Dan

roundball

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2013, 05:28:59 PM »
While I became a devoted fan of the patched round ball for hunting, when I first started out with side locks, I did experiment with and use T/Cs .45cal/255grn Maxi-Hunters (not maxi-ball) out of T/C 1:48" twist on deer.
Deadly accurate and devastating on deer.
Any worries about bullet movement was eliminated by seating a snug fitting Circle Fly over-shot-card down on top of the maxi.

Setting aside a purist POV, if an individual only had one rifle, a .45cal or .50cal x 1:48" twist could be a very good choice to cover a wide range of game.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 05:29:53 PM by roundball »

Walks with Fire

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2013, 11:39:40 PM »
When I first started using flintlocks for deer I wasn't a very good shot with one because of the flash and flinching I guess. Maybe I didn't work on loads developement. At any rate I wasn't getting good results when using the roundball loads because I wasn't getting it where it needed to go and I blamed the roundball projectile when it was my shooting that was at fault.

I can shoot a flinter very well today and don't even notice a flash and putting the roundball in the vitals works really well but I also dont shoot until I can get a good bead on the vitals. I always think that if I can't get a clear shot at the vital area a head shot work work well but I never seem to think of it when I am hunting. Many of the Amish in my area head shoot em. The patched ball works great for me now and it's all I really care to hunt with anymore.

I have used the Hornady PA conical on deer and while they work well I see no advantage over a roundball other than it weighs a little more than a .50 ball but I think if I wanted a bit more weight I would choose to use a .54 ball rifle. The conical also has the potential to slide if you don't use the overcard and I can't see that they would be anymore accurate than the ball. A good soft roundball is what I like but years ago I believed that anything was better than a roundball and spent years trying to prove to myself.

Within  the 120 yard window that I shoot the ball is outstanding. I think my average shot is 40 to 70 yards.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 11:48:07 PM by Walks with Fire »

Offline crawdad

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2013, 07:05:16 PM »
Well, I don't know why or what they would prove or gain by misleading people watching the show. The guide, he was with, was very condescending about his use of a muzzleloader on buffalo, that is until he dropped it. It was something to see, one shot and that buffalo went down faster then you could blink.

They didn't explain or describe the rifle but a close up on it in a few scenes as he was loading it and it was a Lyman GPR. You can buy fast twist GPRs I think TOW has 1:32 GPRs for sale.


And about the creep of the minie, why don't you just reseat it with the ramrod by checking it every so often. Check the condition of the pan powder then check your minie.  I've never had a problem even though the minie bullet did creep down my barrel every so often.

And once again, maybe Tex needs the range of the minie bullet.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 07:29:02 PM by crawdad »

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2013, 12:34:30 AM »
Can't locate my copy, recall one of those publications David Minshall put out a couple decades ago. British hunter who preferred 14 gage rifles for Lions, &c. He had observations of the effect on game of a round ball vs the conical (Minie). If I can find mine I'll quote it. Of course, in my limited experience I agree, that round ball has a wonderful effect on an animal. 

Modern muzzle loading barrels frequently have rather shallow grooves, which makes difficult the use of a near-bore size ball & thick patch to wipe out the fouling with each reload.

Offline gunmaker

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2013, 07:12:41 PM »
I'm a PRB man since 1971,  HOWEVER, my youngest son (27) wanted to try bullets in his .50 cal. 30" green mt. bbl. trade rifle---He bought a box of every kind he could get his hands on.  Result ? 10" groups @ 50 yd. from a bench, none of them would come close to the PRB.  Now he loads them in his little pistol to put game to sleep if need be.  Thats just our experience .....Tom

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2013, 08:07:31 PM »
I was waiting to see if Daryl would respond, since his experience is the same as mine. I started in the early 80's with Patched Round Balls for everything but hunting. The general feeling here [ North Eastern woods of Ontario ]
at that time was that the extra "killing power" of a conical was desirable for game.  Probably because we read magazines with stories by Toby Bridges  who didn't think much of the round ball and said so a lot !! 
I lost at least 2 deer to the conicals, one in a swamp. He travelled a 1/2 mile at least before I lost him .
I wrote to some writers [ Sam Fadala for one] who advised me to " shoot for bone ".  That worked, but the meat loss was worrying.  I went to patched balls and haven't looked back since.  Decent charge = decent trajectory
and if you size the cal. for the game you are after, they [ PRB ] are efficient killers. I have never lost an animal because of PRB performance.  Deer, bears and moose are all taken with .50 cal  to .10 bore guns.
If you could see the effect of a .62 cal  [ 120 gr FFg]  or my 10 bore  [ 140 gr FFG ] on a black bear or a moose  I am certain that you would no longer feel the need for a conical.   

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2013, 08:14:22 PM »
There was an article in a magazine many years ago about the difference
in the punch packed by a round ball as opposed to a conical as fired from
an 1851 Colt Navy 36 caliber pistol.The articale said that the round ball did a better job on
people than a pointed conical that was made in the same mould as the ball.I can't recall
the magazine or maybe a book,Gun Digest or some such.

Bob Roller

Offline westerner

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2013, 06:54:43 PM »
Conical bullets are accurate in the correct rifle.  Using conicals in a flintlock.......eeeeeeeegads!

Bullets can be accurate when loaded properly, even with a patch.  Target was shot with a .45 picket rifle, 32 twist at 100 yards.

.008 patch.  The high left shot and the two low shots were fired with fifty grains 1 1/2 Swiss. The other seven were fired with sixty grains 1 1/2 Swiss.  







        Joe.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 06:58:41 PM by westerner »
X

js98367

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2013, 06:49:44 PM »
I have a Lyman Great Plains 1:60 that I was shooting yesterday. I did a quick brush and patch cleaning of the barrel before I attempted to load a PA conical. It loaded OK at the muzzle but got stuck 6 inches down the barrel and would not budge, so I had to pull it. Subsequent ball and patch shooting went smoothly with no problems. Are these conicals meant for shallow rifling only?

Offline crawdad

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2013, 05:42:34 PM »
With a Minie ball the skirt expands into the rifling after firing so the shallower the groves the better. However I don't think these guys are saying that the round ball's performance can compare to a conical in any way IF both projectiles are fired out of rifles that they were made for but what they are saying is if you have a slow twist rifle then stay with patched round ball. An accurate round ball is far better then an inaccurate Minie.  
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 05:44:32 PM by crawdad »

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2013, 08:09:26 PM »
Crawdad,  what I am saying is that " for hunting ", I have found that the round ball's performance on game is better than a conical.  I have proven it myself too many times.  Will a RB shoot as far as a conical as accurately?
No.  I target shoot at long range 600 to 1000 yds with a muzzleloader shooting bullets, but that is not my choice for hunting. 

Offline Daryl

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Re: Hornady PA Conical Bullets
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2013, 05:39:52 PM »
Even Samuel Baker preferred round balls for hunting as they were more effective.  "I at length gave up the conical as useless, that is, for the killing of (dangerous) game."   
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V