Author Topic: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?  (Read 6865 times)

1911tex

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Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« on: July 26, 2013, 02:10:40 AM »
Been shooting flints for  40 years, same rifle...always bevel down/leather.  Folks I am now shooting with are split; I am happy my way...but is there one you recommend?  Note, I am not opposed to more creative ideas.  Makes things exciting.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2013, 05:42:34 AM »
English locks bevel down, German locks bevel up, always leather.  Unless that doesn't work then I do whatever works but always leather.
St. Louis, Missouri

Dogshirt

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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2013, 05:49:53 AM »
When convention fails, go with that which works!

1911tex

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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2013, 05:50:33 AM »
Thanks Rich and Dogshirt, I just found this which may also help answer my intial question:

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/271048/pid/1169136/post/last/m/1/

Offline Daryl

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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2013, 06:57:23 AM »
Depends on the lock.  Some locks and some flints prefer bevel up or bevel down.
some flints make you switch due to the way they were knapped.
 I've tried lead instead of leather for holding the flint due to having a supply of about .050" pure lead sheet.  Some locks will not tolerate this and eat flints (smash them) due to the harder hit from the added momentum - however some locks actually like this, especially with a hard 'flint' like Rich's river rocks.
As with most aspects of muzzle-loading shooting, one must experiment to find what works for him, her, or the gun.
Daryl

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Offline Ken Prather

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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2013, 05:17:40 PM »
Doesn't Jim Chambers say on his site that he does not recommend using lead for his locks?

K
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2013, 05:44:19 PM »
Possible, considering the long stroke they have, Ken.  L&R locks, on the other hand, with short throw cocks, seem to benefit with the white 'flints'.  As I said, depends on the lock and flints.
Daryl

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Offline PPatch

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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2013, 06:33:41 PM »
Doesn't Jim Chambers say on his site that he does not recommend using lead for his locks?

K

Yes. Jim has stated on ALR that he does not recommend using lead on one of his locks.
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Offline t.caster

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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2013, 07:15:57 PM »
English locks bevel down, German locks bevel up, always leather.  Unless that doesn't work then I do whatever works but always leather.
Pretty much my experience too. Early on, many years ago, seems like the cheap Spanish & Italian locks worked best (oxymoron) with bevel down (on the bottom).
Tom C.

1911tex

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Offline hanshi

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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2013, 10:19:12 PM »
Leather always for me too.  The main thing for me is to have the flint positioned so it scrapes down the frizzen face and doesn't hit into it.  This usually means bevel up for most flints at least to start with.
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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2013, 12:13:50 AM »
Farther down the blackpowdermag.com feature article list is this comparison of leather and lead on a large Siler lock.

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/lead-vs-leather-flint-attachment-study.php

I didnt do a Bevel up vs down because different locks respond differently, many here have said.

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Pletch
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2013, 12:21:34 AM »
It has always seemed to me that a lock design should ensure that, as near as can be, the edge of the flint will strike the face of the frizzen at the optimum angle to first ‘grab’ the surface.  That is at about 28 degrees.    It should then scrape down the face to produce a continuance shower of hot sparks till it reaches the bottom and the frizzen springs back.   In a properly designed lock that optimal angle is obtained and maintained through the cycle by the radius of the cock, the curve and radius of the frizzen and the distance between the two.    And the only way to ensure the strike angle remains the same through a variety flint shapes and thickness is for the edge to be an extension of the bottom, fixed jaw.    Which puts the bevel on the top.   

If the flint is fixed bevel down then different thickness of flints will surely result in the edge striking the face at different points and at different angles with each flint change.    I have assumed that locks that do not function efficiently with the bevel up have been poorly designed or manufactured.    With the need to fix the flint with the bevel down to try to overcome the bad geometry??

Just MHO, of course.     

Peter

Offline ken

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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2013, 05:49:01 PM »
Simple!! witch ever throws the most sparks , and fits

Offline hanshi

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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2013, 12:15:18 AM »
What Hammer said.  +1 8)
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2013, 01:41:42 AM »
I have two guns with Chambers' big round faced English lock.  They  prefer bevel up, and give reliable and consistent performance this way.  But once, when the flint was worn, I tried it bevel down so it would strike higher on the frizzen, and that worked, to extend the working life of the flint, but ignition was noticalbly slower.  the sparks are shot forward of the pan, at the frizzen's hinge point, and though I got ignition, it was not as reliable or as fast as when the bevel was up.
All my locks, regardless of maker, prefer bevel up.
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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2013, 05:44:14 AM »
Both up and down/lead

Depends on the position of the bevel on the individual flint and where the edge of the flint strikes the frizzen.


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Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Ages old questions: Bevel up/down; leather or lead ?
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2013, 07:42:14 AM »
I have two guns with Chambers' big round faced English lock.  They  prefer bevel up, and give reliable and consistent performance this way.  But once, when the flint was worn, I tried it bevel down so it would strike higher on the frizzen, and that worked, to extend the working life of the flint, but ignition was noticalbly slower.  the sparks are shot forward of the pan, at the frizzen's hinge point, and though I got ignition, it was not as reliable or as fast as when the bevel was up.
All my locks, regardless of maker, prefer bevel up.

As above, usually bevel up and leather but have used bevel down to extend the use of the flint.  No detrement to ignition speed that I have noticed.

Geometry of one lock prompted me to ask Rich to make some flints a little longer than normal for the width.  Wish I could get some more.
TC
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