Author Topic: October Julias Auction  (Read 18961 times)

Offline Buck

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October Julias Auction
« on: August 04, 2013, 04:31:20 PM »
Take a look at the previews for Octobers auction. There are some exquisite pieces on the block. Dr. Sirkins collection, the Schreyer and Ernst are spectacular.
Buck
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 04:33:30 PM by Buck »

Offline jdm

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 05:05:40 PM »
WOW!!!!!
 The Kuntz does it for me.   That gentleman had very good taste.
JIM

Offline Buck

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2013, 05:18:18 PM »
Agreed the Kuntz is spectacular. Not a bad one in the bunch.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 05:20:19 PM »
There are some spectacular Kentuckies there.  The Albrecht is super rare.
http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/div_catalog_346_sh.asp
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline spgordon

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 06:02:07 PM »
The Albrecht there: not signed, I assume, but attributed to Albrecht on the basis of the carving. What do you all think of that attribution? (I don't mean to suggest, by asking, that I'm skeptical. I'm really just trying to learn what, in particular, makes this convincingly an Albrecht.)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 07:39:35 PM by spgordon »
Check out The Lost Village of Christian's Spring:
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And The Letters of Mary Penry: A Single Moravian Woman in Early America
http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/978-0-271-08108-3.html

Offline PPatch

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 06:52:05 PM »
Jeez Louise... what a collection! Good to see these longrifles. Thanks for posting this Buck.

dp
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Offline Buck

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2013, 06:56:59 PM »
PPatch your welcome,
spgordon,
Kind of a touchy subject that goes both ways. The one that is most entertaining and hypocritical in my mind is the "Haga" saga. A man that supposedly produced rifles in the pre & post Revolutionary era. Rifles of his time frame were often bulkier with a straight comb, but everything with a roman nose and the Reading A typical carving is attributed to him. That is the accepted label, but unsigned rifles from other schools with identical carving, inlays, and architecture paralleling with their signed counterparts are beat to death because they aren't signed. A great rifle is a great rifle, I have a signed Samuel Pannabecker that is an identical match to every attributed Haga out there, the common belief is he apprenticed under Haga. Samuel was born in 1794 and Haga died in 1796, if this is true he was an incredibly capable 2 year old. I have often thought that all of the Haga's with the Pannabecker stamp on the bottom of the barrel might actually be Pannabecker rifles, and maybe everyone is obsessing over a ghost that started out as a theory. Maybe the stamp on the bottom of the barrels were the makers mark in that area. I think this is a great gun, but it goes back to the common hypocrisy of collecting; If it is on one mans table its not what it appears to be and isn't valuable, but when it passes to another's table it becomes what it really is and it triples in value. Only an observation.
Buck            
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 06:58:08 PM by Buck »

Offline tallbear

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2013, 07:55:23 PM »
Buck
As one who finds Reading area gun to be some of the most interesting I agree.If we are going to use the name Haga to label these guns we should refer the guns as "Haga School" rather than attribute them to Haga as the maker.There has to be at least two or three other unknown makers working at the same time as Haga in a similar  style.

Mitch

Offline spgordon

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2013, 08:28:17 PM »
It has always seemed ... odd to me that any guns can be attributed to a man without at least one signed gun by him to match or compare the unsigned ones to.

But I was really writing about the Albrecht rifle up for auction. What are the tell-tale signs there that lead the auction house to attribute it to Albrecht (and not to others)?
Check out The Lost Village of Christian's Spring:
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And The Letters of Mary Penry: A Single Moravian Woman in Early America
http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/978-0-271-08108-3.html

Offline aka california eddillon

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2013, 08:40:29 PM »
PPatch your welcome,
spgordon,
Kind of a touchy subject that goes both ways. The one that is most entertaining and hypocritical in my mind is the "Haga" saga. A man that supposedly produced rifles in the pre & post Revolutionary era. Rifles of his time frame were often bulkier with a straight comb, but everything with a roman nose and the Reading A typical carving is attributed to him. That is the accepted label, but unsigned rifles from other schools with identical carving, inlays, and architecture paralleling with their signed counterparts are beat to death because they aren't signed. A great rifle is a great rifle, I have a signed Samuel Pannabecker that is an identical match to every attributed Haga out there, the common belief is he apprenticed under Haga. Samuel was born in 1794 and Haga died in 1796, if this is true he was an incredibly capable 2 year old. I have often thought that all of the Haga's with the Pannabecker stamp on the bottom of the barrel might actually be Pannabecker rifles, and maybe everyone is obsessing over a ghost that started out as a theory. Maybe the stamp on the bottom of the barrels were the makers mark in that area. I think this is a great gun, but it goes back to the common hypocrisy of collecting; If it is on one mans table its not what it appears to be and isn't valuable, but when it passes to another's table it becomes what it really is and it triples in value. Only an observation.
Buck            
Well said, Buck
In memory of Capt. Frederick H. Dillon, Commander 235th Ordnance Bomb Disposal Company.  MIA October 10, 1943.  His brother, Private Daniel B. Dillon, 85th Division, KIA northern Italy September 23, 1944.

Offline Buck

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2013, 09:33:17 PM »
Ed,
Thank you, it's not a shot at anyone just an observation. I was at the Prairie Show this weekend and was looking at 2 unsigned Beyer rifles (both were absolute magnificent examples of this mans work) a less experienced collector questioned how we knew it was a Beyer rifle. Louie Parker quickly answered and stated that a signature is not only the name on a barrel, but that the architecture, furniture, and carving is also a "signature" of a mans work. There in I rest my case, buy safe sell safe.

spgordon,
I don't know, there was a rifle (I think) that was attributed to him and was later attributed to John Valentine Beck from the Christian Springs Community in North Carolina. Mr. No Gold or Eric K can probably answer that question.
Buck     

Offline HIB

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2013, 06:47:34 AM »
Gentlemen,  I feel as if I have to comment on the Haga issue.  First and formost is  how did all these various guns, that appear to be similar, get attributed to one man. Basically it is the oldest story in written history; back in the 40's a great number of these guns started to appear in the Reading, Pa. area. Early researchers only knew, at that time, of one documented gunsmith from the Boro of Reading. The attribution evolved from there.

And then about 40 years ago a rifle with similar characteristics showed up with 'Reading' engraved on the patch box cover. Katie bar the door "problem solved" but in actuality it was not. The issue became clouded and someone had a love fest with the name Wolfgang Haga and the myth perpetuated. Incorrectly, but with enough momentum to become believed and forwarded as fact.

I'm telling you straight out; Haga might have very well personally made several of the guns attributed to him but the other 70-80 were not by his hand. Possibly half may have been made in his shop by journeymen or apprentices but it is my firm belief he made very few individual rifles after blowing up his hand in the late 1750's.

As Buck states there were at least 4 other gunsmiths working in the Boro of Reading from 1780 until 1800. Whether or not they were supervised by Haga will never be answered until we find a ledger or document telling us who did what and when they did it. Haga probably continued a gunsmith enterprise employing a number of artisans up until a few years before his death but I can't prove it.  Pure speculation and not worth a penny!!! It is not speculation, however, that several gunsmiths continued with the Boro of Reading patterns into the early 1800's. After Haga died.

So what do we have? Absolutely nothing!!! Other than the fact the majority of guns found attributed to Haga were found in the vicinity of Reading, Pa. And the continuation of the Haga attribution is a dangerous and misleading myth started many years ago by individuals who decided to make up a story to fill in the blanks for the prestigious publication being worked on at the time by my friend Joe Kindig.

Old Joe would be the first to tell you that everything in his book is subject to revision and futher research efforts.
 
He was great from that prospective and his challenge has been a wonderful motivator to many modern day researchers.

I ask only that the reader gets use to referring to these 'Haga Type' guns as examples from the 'Boro of Reading'. That is the only thing that can be proved.

I also state the old adage "buyer be ware" applies to any item offered for sale in the antique market today just as it applied to anything for sale in the past. Do your homework. ask questions. Get the history of the gun before you sell your wife's car to buy one of these gems.   HIB




Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2013, 03:56:15 PM »
Quote
What are the tell-tale signs there that lead the auction house to attribute it to Albrecht (and not to others)?

Well, my first guess would be dollar signs.   hahahahahahahahaha

Seriously, I don't have a clue on this one.  Can't tell much from that one little picture and I've not seen that rifle before.  Maybe it's signed?  Perhaps someone is comparing it to the lone signed rifle that is generally believed to have been made after the move to Lititz.

Hopefully they will have more and better pictures once they finalize the catalogs and upload them.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Fullstock longrifle

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2013, 05:02:13 PM »
Excellent points Henry, I agree that the Haga handle on all of these rifles is inappropriate. Unfortunately the term "Haga rifle" has been used for so long, that people use it without thinking anymore, and when used, most people know what guns you're referring to. Unfortunately when you say "Boro of Reading" rifle, that term could be used for several gunsmith (totally unrelated to the Haga type rifles) in the Reading area. It sure would have made it simpler if old Wolfgang had signed at least one gun! Maybe we can call them Haga style rifles, that's what I usually do anyhow. Oh well, it makes for interesting conversation.

Frank
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 06:49:57 PM by Fullstock longrifle »

Offline spgordon

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2013, 06:52:38 PM »
Well, my first guess would be dollar signs.   hahahahahahahahaha

Seriously, I don't have a clue on this one.  Can't tell much from that one little picture and I've not seen that rifle before.  Maybe it's signed? 

Other rifles listed for auction are noted as "signed," so I'd assume that any of them that aren't tagged as "signed" aren't signed...



Check out The Lost Village of Christian's Spring:
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And The Letters of Mary Penry: A Single Moravian Woman in Early America
http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/978-0-271-08108-3.html

Offline J. Talbert

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2013, 12:38:38 AM »
Thanks Buck for the heads-up, Rich for the link, and all for a good discussion.

Those are some awesome guns regardless... sure hope they add more pictures.

Jeff
"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic"  Benjamin Franklin

Offline Buck

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2013, 03:03:39 AM »
Henry,
Well put, Thank you.
Buck

Offline Buck

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2013, 02:19:08 PM »
Eric,
Thanks for the reply.
Buck

fredfons

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2013, 06:22:58 PM »
I am brand new to this group. I was wondering if anyone would venture a guess as to what the Kuntz guns would go for. I never had an interest in muzzle loaders, but with the American Rifleman (NRA) July issue about the American Long Rifle coinciding with my discovery that my 5th gr grand uncle from Lancaster was a member of Thompson's Rifle Battalion I have become interested. As you probably are aware this Battalion became the 1st Pennsylvania Regiment. Captain Parr's company was detached from the first Pa and assigned to Daniel Morgan.Timothy Murphy was a member of Parr's Company.
With my new interest in the long rifle I went to the Dixon Gun makers Fair last month to learn more and brought $1,000 to possibly buy one. Perusing the tables I saw a repro of a gun made by a Jacob Kuntz of Allentown and thought that's interesting, I have ancestor Jacob Kuntz from Berks Co! Turns out that he was a great grandson of my ancestor.
Now I am obsessed and must have a Pennsylvania long rifle but since the Kuntz repo price was $20,000 I was a little short. I decided to go with a Jim Chambers Kit. With shared Jacob Kuntz DNA, being a retired carpenter and help from this site I think I can be successful.
My carpenters union is waiting for the Obama recovery but I could wait no longer so I am flipping houses. At two a year and $30,000 profit each I need to know how many years until I have enough for the Jacob Kuntz guns at Julia's. ;D   

Offline JTR

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2013, 07:16:23 PM »
Keep working! We'll let you know when you're getting close!  ;D

Depending on just how 'extraordinary' that rifle is, I'd guess 75/100K would be a reasonable price. That doesn't mean it will necessarily sell for a reasonably price!

Good luck, and Welcome to the forum!

John
John Robbins

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2013, 09:43:26 PM »
Welcome Fredfons:

My thought would be that "Fredfons" has a magnificent eye for quality and merit and that if he has any age on him, he will need a third job to buy any of the guns displayed and have time to enjoy it.   ;) We can easily help him join our collecting stewardship at a more reasonable,  achievable level if he contacts any of us personally by email ( click on any of our names in the postings and we will be glad to assist you.)
Hurricane
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 09:48:00 PM by Hurricane ( of Virginia) »

fredfons

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2013, 12:11:44 AM »
Thanks for the warm welcome. At 60 I think I'll hit the lottery before I make enough for a Kuntz.

Offline Buck

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2013, 01:48:27 AM »
John,
Can I stop working yet? Fredfrons welcome.
Buck

Offline JTR

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2013, 03:44:33 AM »
John,
Can I stop working yet? Fredfrons welcome.
Buck

Close I'd say,, very close!

I think I could live with either Armstrong so will leave the Kuntz up for grabs!
And if these rifles are the highlights of the guys collection, I wonder what's on the next rung down?
John  
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 03:55:39 AM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline Buck

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Re: October Julias Auction
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2013, 03:58:13 AM »
I think he had 7 Samuel Hawken rifles that were pictured somewhere in the late 50's. I could be wrong Louie might remember, anyway they were dubbed the Sirkin 7. I know where 2 of them are at. He had one $#*! of a collection. They are all great rifles, I'm particular to the Schroyer. I do know where there is a better Beyer though ;)
Buck
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 04:03:58 AM by Buck »