Corrosion in Goex 4F powder can

[Herb]

I looked into a Goex 4F powder can to see how much powder was left and saw corrosion.  After emptying the 295 grains that was left, I looked with a borelight and saw the entire interior was corroded.  The walls were rough textured but the bottom had bright spots in it, almost like small shotshell pellet strikes on a steel plate, free of corrosion.  The exterior is perfect and the can has never been wet.  The powder is normal.  This is Superfine Black Rifle Powder from Goex at Moosic, PA.  The lot number on the bottom is 04-46/79JU08B, all numbers are not clear, but I think that is correct.  I looked into another Goex 2F empty can and it was perfectly shiny.  Guess I'll have to check all the rest of my empty cans.

[necchi]

Thanks, your story has prompted me to look in my empty newer styled plastic powder jugs.
All is well, not a spec of rust in a single one of'm   

[Herb]

I looked at 11 more Goex cans and one 2F from Minden, LA had a corroded bottom, and some on the interior sides.

[ken]

Could have been the humidity level when the packaging took place. Plus 4f will suck moisture right out of the air

[Mad Monk]

I looked into a Goex 4F powder can to see how much powder was left and saw corrosion.  After emptying the 295 grains that was left, I looked with a borelight and saw the entire interior was corroded.  The walls were rough textured but the bottom had bright spots in it, almost like small shotshell pellet strikes on a steel plate, free of corrosion.  The exterior is perfect and the can has never been wet.  The powder is normal.  This is Superfine Black Rifle Powder from Goex at Moosic, PA.  The lot number on the bottom is 04-46/79JU08B, all numbers are not clear, but I think that is correct.  I looked into another Goex 2F empty can and it was perfectly shiny.  Guess I'll have to check all the rest of my empty cans.

The packing codes shows June 8, 1979.
GOEX, prior to mid 2000, was made using a fertilizer grade of potassium nitrate that contained about 0.5% of sodium nitrate.  Sodium nitrate goes beyond hygroscopic.  It is actually deliquescent.  Meaning it will pull enough moisture from the air to dissolve itself and form a solution.  That small amount of sodium nitrate produces an effect in the powder far out of proportion to the actual amount.  How much moisture (water) is picked up out of the air depends on the grain size.  Smaller grain sizes gave a more rapid and more extensive pick up of moisture.

The tin cans used by GOEX were produced here in the U.S.  Electroplated, not hot dipped.  Single coat.  Tin coatings are noted for being porous.  Old "dairy tin" used in
milk producing farms was triple hot dipped to eliminate the porosity problem.  With the 3 dip coats no two pores lined up with each other completely through the tin film.
Up until the advent of synthetic polymer solution resins food producers would not pack any sulfur bearing food in tin cans.  Tin plating does not offer good protection of the substrate steel when the contents of the container (can) contains any sulfur.  Even in trace amounts.  traces of sulfur vapors/gases will penetrate the pores in the tin coating and react (corrode) with the base steel.

The difference between the 4f can and the 2f can relates to grain size and amount of direct contact between the powder grains and the inner tin surfaces of the can.  In addition.  Some lots of GOEX out of the old Moosic plant were more corrosive than others.

In 2000 GOEx was forced to look for another source/manufacturer of potassium nitrate.  Production of potassium nitrate ceased in the U.S. that year.  They then had to switch to potassium nitrate imported from Chile.  Far superior to their old supplier, the now defunct Vicksburg Chemical Company who operated a potassium chloride conversion plant near Vicksburg Mississippi.

If anybody plans to save tin powder cans as collectors items you transfer the powder to some other container than rinse the inside oof the can good with warm water and then allow the interior to dry well.

[Herb]

Thanks.  I reload them with bulk Goex.  But I'll not use the corroded 4F or 2F cans. 

[Mad Monk]

Thanks.  I reload them with bulk Goex.  But I'll not use the corroded 4F or 2F cans. 

This thing about the sulfur, in the powder, and tin can corrosion is why the manufacturers moved away from tin cans and went with plastic bottles.  Back about 15 years ago the price of new tin cans went up.  The cost of a single can being about 75 cents at that time.  Probably higher now.  For manufacturers shipping cans of BP into the U.S. the can corrosion was sometimes a problem.  Back in the 1980's GOEX was shipping cans of BP to Australia.  Sometimes arriving there with corrosion in the cans.  As long as Elephant had shipped powder in Brazilian made tin cans there was no corrosion problem.  The tin cans they used had a coating of a synthetic polymer over the tin.  The tin cans had a yellow cast when you looked at the tin plating.  That simply followed tin can food packaging "technology".

[heelerau]

 I have a heap of Goex from early 80s packing indicates   from July 81 , some mid 83, a small ammount of rust in the tin, none as such on the outside. 

[William Worth]

Good to hear again from the, "Monk that is Mad". 

[Hungry Horse]

 Personally I am more concerned with the plastic bottles melting, in a house, or shop, fire, and going off, than I am with can corrosion. I've seen cans from a house fire with the paint burned completely off of them, that didn't go off. I dare say, that would not be the case with the plastic bottles.

                   Hungry Horse

[Dphariss]

I have a heap of Goex from early 80s packing indicates   from July 81 , some mid 83, a small ammount of rust in the tin, none as such on the outside. 

Here is a test for old Goex.
Slowly (3 seconds for 70-100 grains of powder) pour some old Goex through a drop tube, a 30" or so long piece of  straight tubing, into a cartridge case or powder measure to fill it near full, 70-80 grains is enough. Now look for dust.  The dust will fall slower through the tube and will be the top layer. I used the throw away a lot of Goex when I was using it for BPCR prior to the arrival of Swiss. But ML shooters would never see it. Usually this occurs in the bottom one quarter to one third of the can. I would load cartridges till I started getting dust, then switch to another can and proceed until dust appeared again. The dusty powder got dumped.

Dan

[PPatch]

Personally I am more concerned with the plastic bottles melting, in a house, or shop, fire, and going off, than I am with can corrosion. I've seen cans from a house fire with the paint burned completely off of them, that didn't go off. I dare say, that would not be the case with the plastic bottles.

                   Hungry Horse

HH;

It is extremely unlikely the powder in a plastic bottle will "go off" (explode) in a fire. The plastic melts, the powder catches fire and burns hotly for a few seconds, and it is done.

dp

[Hungry Horse]

Dave;

  Thats all fine and good as long as your powder is sitting on a shelf, or on the floor, in the open air ( but, even then I seriously doubt black powder is going to burn harmlessly). But, I for one, don't recommend storing a Class A explosive in this manner. In the past I have stored it in military ammo cans, and double locking gun boxes. Both of these do a good job of keeping a break in from turning into a tragedy. These storage systems also become a bomb when the powder goes off after the plastic bottle melts, and reaches its flash point. Gun boxes are not air tight, and ammo cans are only air tight until the rubber gasket melts.  In metal cans the powder never gets the necessary spark to ignite it, this is not the case in plastic bottles.

                                 Hungry Horse

[Mad Monk]

Dave;

  Thats all fine and good as long as your powder is sitting on a shelf, or on the floor, in the open air ( but, even then I seriously doubt black powder is going to burn harmlessly). But, I for one, don't recommend storing a Class A explosive in this manner. In the past I have stored it in military ammo cans, and double locking gun boxes. Both of these do a good job of keeping a break in from turning into a tragedy. These storage systems also become a bomb when the powder goes off after the plastic bottle melts, and reaches its flash point. Gun boxes are not air tight, and ammo cans are only air tight until the rubber gasket melts.  In metal cans the powder never gets the necessary spark to ignite it, this is not the case in plastic bottles.

                                 Hungry Horse

When you say "the powder never gets the necessary spark to ignite it".

ANY source of heat may ignite black powder.  Sparks produce heat, yes.  But any source of heat can result in ignition.  But!  If you heat the powder slowly it will not really ignite.  Smolder yes.  In order to ignite black powder and get the results you see if you ignite a pile or string on the ground the heat must be intense and fast.  Heated slowly the first thing that happens is that the sulfur turns to a vapor up close to the boiling point of water temperature.  This would in itself blow the top off a tin powder can.  Has happened numerous times around here.  While the sulfur vapors themselves are flammable they don't always ignite.  The contents of the can then simply burns rapidly but does not really blow up.

One year at the Gunmaker's Fair and well known gun builder from the Allentown area was joking.  He returned from a shoot.  sat his shooting box next to his work bench.  Used a clot to wipe a coat of boiled oil on a gunstock.  Unthinking he threw the oil application cloth into the waste basket next to his bench and shooting box.  Then went in for supper.  While eating he heard two dull sounds.  then a neighbor telling him there was smoke coming from his work shop.  When he went into his shop there was smoke.  He saw the two powder cans in his box had blown the can tops off.  Tops of cans blackened.  The fire was out in the waste basket.  When the powder burned in the cans if gave off a good bit of carbon dioxide and some carbon monoxide.  He figures the CO2 from the powder put out the smoldering fire in the waste basket.

But when it comes to powder storage.  Technically under ATF regs you are supposed to keep all bp stored in approved storage magazines.  I have one in the shed out back.  Steel box with a lid.  no hinges.  Locks both ends.  Insulation inside.  Holds 25 1-pound cans of powder.  Here in this city the fire code allows me to have no more than 6 pounds of black powder on my property at any given time.  The code does not call for a ATF approved storage magazine.

Generally.  Plastic bottles used to store black powder will not melt in a fire.  If the powder inside is ignited the seams of the bottle will split.  Any meaningful rise in pressure within the bottle and the plastic simply splits.  The plastic was extruded in the bottle blowing process.  The polymer is very linear.  Not nearly as strong in the extrusion direction compared to "across the grain".  Tin cans represent no increase in security over plastic bottles.  If plastic bottles were a danger, compared to tin cans, they never would have been approved for packaging and shipping black powder.

[necchi]

 In metal cans the powder never gets the necessary spark to ignite it, this is not the case in plastic bottles

Sorry Friend, I might be the new guy, but I'll trump ya here as I'm in the plastics extrusion industry.
I'm actually a Process Chemical Engineer in our shop and I'm responsible for mixing 1000's of pounds of customer product daily.

These bottles in question are made of High Density Poly Ethylene, if you look on the bottom you'll see the little triangle and HDPE. There is a myriad of other polymers and anti-static additives available per customer requirements.

You presume in your statement to know the melt temp of the HDPE. In the extrusion process the actual melt temp of HDPE pellets may be around 300-325 but the extruder places the melt under a pressure of 2000-4000 psi before it's blown into the die and cooled. The temp swing of the heat/cool cycle many times is what lends the characteristics to the finished product.
These bottles under a flame may well withstand temps at or above that of thin tin, and won't transfer that heat as easily, as Bill explained above things happen with powder at higher temps without spark that change the powders property.

Powders have been coming in Plastic bottles now for decades, the old fussing about the change from tin is just that,
Fussing about change.
There is nothing wrong with the plastic bottles and there never will be beyond folks just not liking the change.

[Hungry Horse]

 So, smart guys, if I'm all wet, on this one, why does the BATF explanation of a class A explosive list one of its properties as the ability to burn fast enough when exposed to spark, or flame, to qualify as a detonation?
 I know other PROPELLANTS have been sold in plastic for years, but they are not classified as a Class A explosive.

                  Hungry Horse

[necchi]

Heating a bottle with a flame and waiting for it to melt or burn so that said flame or spark can get too the explosive,
(beit tin or plastic)
is a different issue than a direct spark or flame to a Class A explosive.

That's the point Mad Monk was making, that once the sulfur as he said gets to around 212 it changes it's properties in the mix and thus changes the,,, oh what's the use?  

Better just start saving your tin cans, cause they ain't gonna stop using plastic.

And don't worry too much about folks that make tin cans loosing their job, they are all working at the plastic plant now,,
And Yes, Plastic bottles are made in the USA. (lot's of'm)

[Mad Monk]

So, smart guys, if I'm all wet, on this one, why does the BATF explanation of a class A explosive list one of its properties as the ability to burn fast enough when exposed to spark, or flame, to qualify as a detonation?
 I know other PROPELLANTS have been sold in plastic for years, but they are not classified as a Class A explosive.

                  Hungry Horse

The ATF are not technical geniuses.  Black Powder combustion rates do not begin to approach true detonation.  No surface burning propellant powder is a true detonating compound.

With black powder the issue centers on the open burn rate.  If you ignite a pile of smokeless powder in the open it just sits there and sort of fizzles.

If you want to see how arbitrary their classification system is try open burning a pile of Hodgdon's Triple Seven and then a pile of black powder.  You will not see much difference but the black powder is classed as Class A while the Triple Seven is classed as a flammable solid.

Then when it comes to shipping packaging they use a detonator in one container in a case of containers.  If the container fired with the detonator causes the surrounding containers to ignite it would not be approved for the common carrier variance seen in black powder.

Just how flaky the classification system is (ATF) is seen about 30 years ago with a bunch of litigation involving the Hodgdon Powder Company and their Pyrodex.  We shooters buy it classed as a flammable solid.  No special regs on storage and handling.  So a granite quarrying company, Rock of Ages, figured it could be used to quarry marble for buildings and headstones.  Treated the Pyrodex just as we do.  No explosive magazine, etc.  Then the ATF moves in a cites the quarry for not handling the Pyrodex like an explosive.  So for shooting purposes they said Pyrodex was nothing more than a flammable solid but when they went to use it in quarry work it suddenly had to be treated as if it were a "high explosive".

While this might get me on the govt. watch list all of my views of the ATF suggest they are not that sharp when it comes to the subject being discussed.  I would be a lot more concerned over a gallon of mower gas going up in flames.  And I should point out that the most common gas containers seen around here being filled at the gas pump are plastic.

[Dogshirt]

And while I, as an individual can use a plastic gas container, the company I work for has to have metal.

[Mad Monk]

And while I, as an individual can use a plastic gas container, the company I work for has to have metal.

With the metal ones having a flame arresting screen in the spout which is not normally seen in the plastic ones sold for home use.

[JCKelly]

Mr. Phariss -
Dust.
Filling a horn from an o-l-d partial can of du Pont not long ago, I saw a nice fine black cloud arise.
I think this is why many prefer to avoid static electricity around black, regardless of what the Modern Scientific Studies show about spark voltage & FFFg.

MM - no comments about sulfur eating bacteria pee rusting them there GOEX cans??

Cynical, P.I.T.A. Metallurgist

[Mad Monk]

MM - no comments about sulfur eating bacteria pee rusting them there GOEX cans??

Cynical, P.I.T.A. Metallurgist

With the end of Moosic production and the start of powder out of Minden the wee critter problem became a thing of the past.

MM

[WaterFowl]

Herb..I thought you stored your powder underground in a 5 gal.pail??? Any coincidence?

[Herb]

Yes, I do.  But this 4F has probably been in my shooting box or closet most of the time.  Other cans are not rusted.