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Author Topic: Modena and Bridger Hawken  (Read 2033 times)
rsells
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« on: August 26, 2013, 02:23:31 AM »

I am getting ready to go out West and would like to take photographs of the Modena and Bridger Hawken.  Do any of you guys have up-to-date info on their current locations?
                                                                                 Roger Sells
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little joe
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« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2013, 05:31:28 AM »

Years back the Bridger Hawken was at the Montana State Museum in Helena. Try the Jim Gordon Museum in New Mexico for the Modina and if he doesn,t have it I would bet he can point you in the right direction.
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smylee grouch
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« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2013, 07:52:32 AM »

The Modena rifle was still at Gordons when I stoped there in March.
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Herb
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« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2013, 10:05:57 AM »

Jim Gordon owns the Mariano Modena Hawken and it is in his museum at Glorieta, NM, about 15 miles SE of Sante Fe where Gordon lives.  You have to phone him to make an appointment to get into the museum, there is no charge for the entrance.  His phone number is (505)-982-9667.  You can pick up and handle or photograph any of the hundreds of rifles in his museum, maybe 20 some Hawkens and even more Lemans.  The Kit Carson rifle is also in Sante Fe, owned by the Masonic Lodge.  I have not seen it.  The Jim Bridger rifle is owned by the Montana State Historical Society and is in Helena, Montana.  I intend to see it there is early September, but do not have the exact location.  You can look it up on the internet, which I shall soon do. 
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Herb
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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2013, 12:19:04 PM »

You are in the right neighborhood to see Kit Carson's Hawken rifle, also. It is housed in the Masonic Lodge in Santa Fe. Don't recall the address, but if interested, phone them and make an appointment with the lodge master to see the gun. In the past they were very hospitable
in showing it. It is a grand rifle and is almost in new condition. They think that this was his last Hawken, the last of probably several, as frontier use was hard on things.
Dick
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louieparker
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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2013, 01:23:42 PM »

Roger if you go to Jim Gordon's museum you can also see the Tom Tobin Hawken. If you know a bit of Tobin's history this is certainly an interesting rifle .  He also has a good number of other Hawken including an early J&S known as the Wagon Master Hawken. This is probably the hardest used Hawken that you are likely to see.
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rsells
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« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2013, 04:35:33 PM »

Thanks for the info.  I talked to Jim Gordon and it looks good for the Modena rifle.  Can someone give me a short discussion on the Tim Tobin Hawken?  I am not up to date on the history of this one.  Thanks again for your help.
                                                                                  Roger Sells
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louieparker
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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2013, 05:25:51 PM »

Roger there's a book on Tom Tobin by James E Perkins . But you can Google  him and there is a brief history of his life.. This includes the story where he brought the Espinosas  heads back in a tow sack to collect the bounty.. He was a mixed breed and a very colorful fellow. On the barrel of the rifle there are I believe nine notches .Not real sure about that number. Two of these are probably the Espinosas.. The book has several photos of Tobin and his rifle. Also photos of some of his belongings. Louie Parker

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louieparker
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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2013, 07:10:29 PM »

Roger I looked up the number of notches on Tobin's rifle barrel . It actually has twelve .
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Herb
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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2013, 11:51:46 PM »

Here are some of Jim Gordon's Hawkens in his museum.

Here is Tom Tobin's Hawken.  He was a very impressive person, and the book about him has considerable history of the southwest U.S.  The book is "Tom Tobin, Frontiersman" by James E. Perkins. ISBN # 0-9644056-8-7.  I think I got mine at the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron, NE for $21.95.  I highly recommend it.
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Herb
greywolf
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« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2013, 08:04:29 PM »

I plead with all of you to never spell Mariano Medina's name incorrectly again.
It is  Spanish name from the days when Spain was ruled by the Moors. It's an Arab word for "market".

My first replica of the Medina rifle was made by a gunsmith from Grapevine, Texas in 1977. It was stolen in 1999, along with three flintlock rifles and my first kit, the TC "Hawken" that gave me black powder fever. Clay Smith built me another one in 2000. It is an improper .50 caliber, but I couldn't refuse his offer of using a .54 caliber Douglas Premium barrel.

I lived in the Santa Fe area 1985-2002 and visited the Shrine Temple to fondle the Carson Hawken. I went with a friend, Joe Bowman, the quick draw and exhibition shooting specialist who was a neighbor when I lived in Houston. After that session he offered to introduce me to another friend who had moved from Houston to Santa Fe. During a three way conversation Joe mentioned that he and I had just come from enjoying a look at Carson's rifle. The new friend excused himself, left the room, returned and handed me the twin to the Carson rifle. I overdosed!

While living in Santa Fe I visited the Denver Museum several times where the Medina Hawken was on loan at the time.

After moving back to Texas to retire in 2002 I organized a club to shoot monthly muzzle loader matches. Match number 107 was held last Saturday. I shot the Medina rifle and had a "good vision day", a rare thing with my post cataract removal replaced lenses and won a match with it. That's not a frequent occurrence as I will be 81 on 9/11.

I also Booshwah two rendezvous a year and attend two others. I also participate in reenactments of some of the battles of the Texas Revolution, especially at Goliad, the premier event.

"If you rest you rust"

By the way, there is a little paperback book on Medina's life that is hard to find as it seems to have just one printing. Medina and Carson were friends. Carson came back to New Mexico when he was very ill and stopped to visit Medina for a couple of days. He went on to his Taos home and died soon after.

Another by the way, after handling the Carson rifle I asked the Shriner host if we could see Carson's pistol that I had heard was there. He replied that both guns had been sent to the museum at the Carson home in Taos is for some kind of celebration and that the pistol was stolen there.

Joe Wolf
Canyon Lake, Texas 
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T.C.Albert
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WWW
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2013, 08:11:56 PM »

A little info on Tom Tobin from: www.legendsofamerica.com

Tom Tate Tobin (1823-1904) - A frontiersman, trapper, mountain man, scout and guide, Tobin was born at St. Louis, Missouri on March 15, 1823. When he was just 14 years-old, he traveled west with his half-brother, Charles Autobees to Taos, New Mexico in 1837. There, he worked as a trapper, as well as sometimes working at a store at Arroyo Hondo. Later, he worked as a trapper and scout at Bent's Fort, Colorado. In 1846, he married Pascuala Bernal and the two settled at Arroyo Hondo, near Taos, New Mexico. In the Taos Pueblo Revolt in January, 1847, he narrowly escaped being killed. Through the years, he continued to work as a guide and scout, making the acquaintance of other frontiersman, such as Kit Carson, Uncle Dick Wootton, Ceran St. Vrain, Charles Bent, John C. Fremont, Wild Bill Hickok, and William F. Cody, and the Shoup brothers. By, 1853, his talents as a mountain man were so highly regarded, that he guided the Beale expedition from the Gunnison River to California. Some ten years later, in September, 1863, he was sent along with a detachment of soldiers to track down and eliminate the notorious outlaws, Felipe and Julian Espinosa. Returning to Fort Garland, Colorado with the desperados' heads in a sack, he never received the full $2,500 reward offered. In November, 1868, Tobin was appointed by General Penrose as chief scout on an Indian-hunting campaign where he worked along two other scouts, including his half-brother, Charles Autobee and "Wild Bill" Hickok. In the meantime, his daughter, Pascualita, had grown up and married William "Billy" Carson, Kit's son in 1878. Later, when Tobin found out that Billy was abusing his wife, he went after his son-in-law to avenge the beating, but instead, was shot by Billy Carson. Though Tobin survived, he never fully recovered from his wound,. However, he did outlive Billy by many years. Tobin died on May 16, 1904 and was buried at Fort Garland, Colorado.
from :Tom Tate Tobin (1823-1904) - A frontiersman, trapper, mountain man, scout and guide, Tobin was born at St. Louis, Missouri on March 15, 1823. When he was just 14 years-old, he traveled west with his half-brother, Charles Autobees to Taos, New Mexico in 1837. There, he worked as a trapper, as well as sometimes working at a store at Arroyo Hondo. Later, he worked as a trapper and scout at Bent's Fort, Colorado. In 1846, he married Pascuala Bernal and the two settled at Arroyo Hondo, near Taos, New Mexico. In the Taos Pueblo Revolt in January, 1847, he narrowly escaped being killed. Through the years, he continued to work as a guide and scout, making the acquaintance of other frontiersman, such as Kit Carson, Uncle Dick Wootton, Ceran St. Vrain, Charles Bent, John C. Fremont, Wild Bill Hickok, and William F. Cody, and the Shoup brothers. By, 1853, his talents as a mountain man were so highly regarded, that he guided the Beale expedition from the Gunnison River to California. Some ten years later, in September, 1863, he was sent along with a detachment of soldiers to track down and eliminate the notorious outlaws, Felipe and Julian Espinosa. Returning to Fort Garland, Colorado with the desperados' heads in a sack, he never received the full $2,500 reward offered. In November, 1868, Tobin was appointed by General Penrose as chief scout on an Indian-hunting campaign where he worked along two other scouts, including his half-brother, Charles Autobee and "Wild Bill" Hickok. In the meantime, his daughter, Pascualita, had grown up and married William "Billy" Carson, Kit's son in 1878. Later, when Tobin found out that Billy was abusing his wife, he went after his son-in-law to avenge the beating, but instead, was shot by Billy Carson. Though Tobin survived, he never fully recovered from his wound,. However, he did outlive Billy by many years. Tobin died on May 16, 1904 and was buried at Fort Garland, Colorado.

Tom Tate Tobin (1823-1904) - A frontiersman, trapper, mountain man, scout and guide, Tobin was born at St. Louis, Missouri on March 15, 1823. When he was just 14 years-old, he traveled west with his half-brother, Charles Autobees to Taos, New Mexico in 1837. There, he worked as a trapper, as well as sometimes working at a store at Arroyo Hondo. Later, he worked as a trapper and scout at Bent's Fort, Colorado. In 1846, he married Pascuala Bernal and the two settled at Arroyo Hondo, near Taos, New Mexico. In the Taos Pueblo Revolt in January, 1847, he narrowly escaped being killed. Through the years, he continued to work as a guide and scout, making the acquaintance of other frontiersman, such as Kit Carson, Uncle Dick Wootton, Ceran St. Vrain, Charles Bent, John C. Fremont, Wild Bill Hickok, and William F. Cody, and the Shoup brothers. By, 1853, his talents as a mountain man were so highly regarded, that he guided the Beale expedition from the Gunnison River to California. Some ten years later, in September, 1863, he was sent along with a detachment of soldiers to track down and eliminate the notorious outlaws, Felipe and Julian Espinosa. Returning to Fort Garland, Colorado with the desperados' heads in a sack, he never received the full $2,500 reward offered. In November, 1868, Tobin was appointed by General Penrose as chief scout on an Indian-hunting campaign where he worked along two other scouts, including his half-brother, Charles Autobee and "Wild Bill" Hickok. In the meantime, his daughter, Pascualita, had grown up and married William "Billy" Carson, Kit's son in 1878. Later, when Tobin found out that Billy was abusing his wife, he went after his son-in-law to avenge the beating, but instead, was shot by Billy Carson. Though Tobin survived, he never fully recovered from his wound,. However, he did outlive Billy by many years. Tobin died on May 16, 1904 and was buried at Fort Garland, Colorado.

tca



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rsells
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« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2013, 02:06:38 AM »

I apologize for my spelling in this post.  All of the Hawken reference books I own, "Hawken Rifles The Mountain Man's Choice"  by John D Baird , and "The Hawken Rifle: Its Place in History" written by Charles Hanson spelled the name Mariano Modena.  I think everyone who responded knew the rifle I was talking about and shared information that will be of help to me when I make my trip.  Thanks to all for your help.
                                                                                     Roger Sells
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