Scared to start cutting

[Thawk]

This has been sitting for a week.  I've done everything to avoid it but it's time to either carve it or leave it plain.  I've got so much time into this and I'm so-so satisfied that I've done a decent job so far.  I'm scared to start cutting.  I really don't want to ruin it. If I did screw it up, I suppose I could just sand it off. But wouldn't the stabbing cuts still show up in the finish??

[Jackie Brown]

I'm not a carver but I think I would dedicate myself to living with the outcome or not doing it.  You might sand the carving off but as you say, it may show.

[PPatch]

Don't feel alone, I too have a first rifle ready to carve but am holding off until I practice more and feel confident to begin. Nothing wrong in letting it sit for a bit and doing what you have done in asking others advice, and for that you have came to the right place. Hang in there and wait and see what others say. And, there is nothing "wrong" about a plain rifle with a nice finish.

dp

[JTR]

My advise, don't cut just yet!
You really need to remove the kinks and refine your design down to a thin, exact pencil line, before you start cutting.
Also, if you're not sure how well your carving will turn out, stab in the design very shallow and cut that. If you like the looks you can stab it deeper. If you don't, just delete it.
I'm sure plenty of others will chime in as well with different ideas.

Good luck, John

[rich pierce]

It could probably integrate better with the rear edge of the cheek piece.  Might need to re shape that transition. 

[Lucky R A]

     You really need to redraw and refine your design.  The reverse volute coming back in rear of the carving is out of place.  Give some thought as to how you are going to mold your carving, draw in the shading lines to show your high and low points of the design.  Since this is a rather simple design, why don't you lightly cut it in w/ a V tool no more than 1/16" deep.  It things go off to left field you will only have to remove 3/32 of wood at most to get rid of it.  Study a carving that you really like, and when you are done studying it, look closely at all the detail--not the carving as a whole.  Try putting a hole in a piece of paper to mask off the entire design and then position the paper over a specific area and study it, then move on to another area...

Good luck
Ron

[Paddlefoot]

If you are unsure of your carving ability you need to get some easy carving wood and get some chisel time in. Don't practice on your final product.

[JDK]

I, for one, would like to see a profile shot of the whole butt of this gun.  It looks like there's some clean up and final shaping to do before it's even ready to carve.....notice all the file marks and the wood still proud of the buttplate return.

Besides that it the termination cheek piece appears too wide and the toe of the buttplate kicked out too much resulting in the buttplate return diving a little into the comb.  That could just be the angle of the photo or the fact that so little of the butt is shown.  Don't know.

Enjoy, J.D.

[Jerry V Lape]

Paddlefoot is about right.  I don't carve on my finished gun until i have successfully carved the same artwork on a practice peice set up like that part of the real stock.   Sometimes that takes 3 practices.   Unlike Paddlefoot I think it is necessary to practice in the same type wood as the stock.  Using the same wood you will learn a lot more about your skills than carving in dissimilar wood.  Hard maple presents challenges basswood doesn't and vice versa.  Be sure to figure out which way the grain runs at every turn when cutting.  

The drawing needs a lot of work before you cut.  One of the most difficult but most productive parts of carving is getting the drawing correct before cutting.  I don't know anyone can carve well from a rough sketch and you need to be able to draw it before you will every be able to cut it.  Expect to spend several hours getting the drawing right.  Abrupt changes in the major curves just look terrible when cut.  

If you are afraid to cut that means you really aren't skilled enough and you know it.  Don't cut!

[Thom]

Carving my first rifle was painfully slow. I did not use any tools that removed wood quickly. By my second rifle I chased a V-Tool, it turned out great and I was very proud of myself.

Thom

[necchi]

I'm scared to start cutting. 

I'm in the same place, I'm not scared really just following the good advice that's being given in this thread,
Drawing first, Practicing, with curly maple,, and found I didn't have the proper tools,, my inletting tools work just fine for inletting, but a V Gouge does not a parting tool make!
The first couple hacks at that plank would have left me embarrassed to have on my rifle, but I'm getting closer to where I want to begin on my stock.
Two more `vous this season yet then back to the rifle build
Listen to these guy's,, they've been there and are just sharing that experience.

[Thawk]

I, for one, would like to see a profile shot of the whole butt of this gun.  It looks like there's some clean up and final shaping to do before it's even ready to carve.....notice all the file marks and the wood still proud of the buttplate return.

Besides that it the termination cheek piece appears too wide and the toe of the buttplate kicked out too much resulting in the buttplate return diving a little into the comb.  That could just be the angle of the photo or the fact that so little of the butt is shown.  Don't know.

Enjoy, J.D.

I'll get a picture of the whole butt up soon. 
I left the wood proud to the butt plate purposely.  The extra wood was for the relief carving and would be taken care of when I scraped everything smooth. Is that wrong??

The comb needs to be lowered to the butt plate also.  I think picture makes it look worse than it is.

I'm not sure what you mean by the termination of the cheek piece being too wide.

I'm heading down to the shop now to take another look and do some thinking.

[Mark Elliott]

I am one of those who likes to just barge on ahead and hates to practice.   I would just do a gun and move on.   With each gun, my work got better.    However,  carving, engraving, and wire inlay are all things that require you to be very deliberate and careful.  Practice on practice pieces will help, but you need to practice on something the same shape as your buttstock.   Carving or engraving a flat surface is not the same as carving or engraving a curved surface.   Like the others said, you need to take your time and have a nice clean, sharp, and precise drawing on your stock.  Then, you need to just as carefully,  stab in along the nice sharp lines you have drawn.   If you have a properly shaped stabbing tool (shaped like a cats eye in cross section) then you can fudge a line just a little bit, but not much.   Basically,  your carving (or wire inlay) is not going to be any better than your drawing or your stabbing in.   You just have to take your time and do each step very deliberately and carefully.   Actually removing wood is the easy part.   One piece of advise about removing wood is to avoid cutting straight into your line.   Approach the line/raised carving from the side with a sweeping motion.  Also,  you need chisels that are properly sharpened and you need to hone often while you are working.   A properly sharpened chisel will cut easily in even hard maple as long as you aren't taking big cuts, and you shouldn't.   Most carving is only 1/32" high.   Light cuts will do it.  Just work slowly, don't get in a rush, and you should be fine.  I have learned that gun building takes what it takes.   You just can't rush it.   

[KLMoors]

You want to get the surface you are going to be carving on down to a much higher degree of smoothness. It is OK to leave it a tiny bit proud where you will be removing material, but the areas of your design that will be in relief need to be ready for stain and finish with just a little touching up with a scraper, and or, sandpaper.

After you've got the area really smooth, I'm with Lucky and JTR- You need to re-draw this whole design again. As said above- find a carving you like and use its general backbone as your starting point. Then add the extra details you want.

Also, the kinkiness of some of your lines tells me that you might be trying to draw it while it is in the vice, or sitting on your workbench.

I like to set the gun on something where I can sit at a comfortable height and have my arm resting on the table next to the gun. I have a low bench for engraving that I use for drawing, but any table would work.  Fold up a towel or two next to the butt so your arm is supported, and your hand is resting on the butt in a comfortable position, just as comfortable as if you were drawing on a piece of paper. Make sure your arm and hand are at the same height as the surface you will be drawing on.  Then start drawing.   I think you will find it much easier to draw graceful curves this way.

[J. Talbert]

At first glance it appears the check piece might extend too far to the rear, (need to see the whole buttstock to properly judge).  To my eye, the carving looks crowded into the space.  If nothing else, the upper ridge extending from the check piece may need to be softened.  I would lower its height and blend it more into the surrounding surface.

I would not recommend trying to design your own carving on your first attempt.  Pick a simple design that you like and copy it.

The first thing you must master is drawing the pattern.  At best, the carving will only be as good as the drawing.

Believe it or not, drawing does get easier with repetition.   I can attest to that.

Best of luck,
Jeff

[Acer Saccharum]

I like your design, it will be really appealing and folksy when complete. What I will try to do is to talk about minor things that would improve the carving(in my opinion)

I see some 'problem areas' in the design. While I will point them out, they may be a problem to me, but not necessarily to you. This carving design is a matter of taste and creative sense, and there really is no hard and fast rule.

The section labeled 1, there are several awkward bends on the main scroll.  The entire scroll needs to flow from one end to the other. I will also comment, tho' it's not drawn here, that the scroll looks too tall for MY sensibilities. The width of the main scroll is fine, but it could be compressed from top to bottom.

Section 2 tendril starts off with a sharp bend, but it should really flow out of the main scroll.

Section 3 has straight sections that cause the eye to stop. There are few places where straight lines work in a carving design.

One last thing, if you slightly vary the diameters of the minor scrolls, it lends visual stimulation. If they are all the same size, that is visual boredom.

Draw, draw, draw. Draw at the dinner table, at lunch, during the corporate meeting, not while driving, while on the phone with the ex, draw, draw, draw! And the eraser is just a mighty tool as the pencil.

[deano]

Nothing wrong with an uncarved plain rifle with everything else done well...staring at an unfinished piece is not anywhere as satisfying as holding a well executed rifle walking through the woods. Make it skinny, do a super job in building a finish and shoot it.

I really appreciate the some of the featured guns where less is more.

[JDK]

I'll get a picture of the whole butt up soon. 
I left the wood proud to the butt plate purposely.  The extra wood was for the relief carving and would be taken care of when I scraped everything smooth. Is that wrong??

The comb needs to be lowered to the butt plate also.  I think picture makes it look worse than it is.

Others may do it different, but the way I've been taught is to finish the shaping, smoothing and whiskering and then carve.  Think about it.  You really don't need to leave extra wood for relief carving as it's only supposed to be about 1/32" of inch tall.  Do you really want to clean all of that up after carving?  It's a risk.  If your surface isn't smooth first all those file marks will be on top of your high spots.

Finish the gun to final shape, as if you weren't going to carve it, then draw on your carving and cut.  All you have to do then is clean up your carving and background.

I'm not sure what you mean by the termination of the cheek piece being too wide.

The horizontal flat surface, the face at the bottom edge.  I can only see the back corner of it in the photo.  It should be shaped with a molding and not left as a big flat surface, except maybe on plain guns.  Look at pictures of original work.

Enjoy, J.D.

[Thawk]

The horizontal flat surface, the face at the bottom edge.  I can only see the back corner of it in the photo.  It should be shaped with a molding and not left as a big flat surface, except maybe on plain guns.  Look at pictures of original work.

Enjoy, J.D.

OK Now I understand.  It does have a molding.  Pics to follow when I get home from work.  Think I got this Photobucket thing licked.  BTW I sanded it down with 180 yesterday, It's still a little proud to the butt plate but just a hair.

[Pete G.]

Keep in mind that quite a few gunsmiths were not necessarily great carvers. You want it to be as good as it can be, but short of perfection is not really a problem. Having said that, the main problem I see with your pattern is that it is cramped from trying to fit into too small of a space. Your cheekpiece needs to go forward about 1/2" or so. Take a look at Acer's critique. The spot he identifies as 1 should be about under the end of the buttplate return. Do that and I think you will find your pattern to be much more flowing. When you start your layout, draw an oval around the carving area and use that for a guide when you do the rest of the sketching. The oval is not a frame, but it helps to keep the pattern balanced.

[Acer Saccharum]

This carving is folksy, not based on anything in particular. The background is not perfectly done, there are tear-outs, curves are a bit irregular; but so what? This is a handmade object, and the hand of the artist shows.

I think that you should do the best you can, and learn to accept the imperfections. We are not perfect creatures, nor is our work. But always try to do your best.

[Acer Saccharum]

Work like Jim Kibler's or Jim Chambers is not the norm for Kentucky rifles. Their work approaches perfection, and it is really beautiful.

Look at photos of original work, or, when possible, the work itself. It will dawn on you that these were people with skill sets just like ours. We are all over the map.

So take a deep breath, and start working on a practice piece. You will quickly find what tools and techniques work for you and what doesn't. That knowledge and experience will transfer directly to your rifle.

[Thawk]

Here is the last pic of the butt before I sanded the image off.

[necchi]

I'd be changing the size and shape of the cheek and the rear of it entering the butt. I say this because of the advice I got from others about my rifle awhile back.
This photo (before) is what it looked like as the precarve;




And then the "after" when I shaped it properly. Doing this not only gives it an easier looking flow, but give me more room for carving,, things don't have to be crammed into a small area.
I used heavy rasps to change that shape and a bunch of wood came off.

[smallpatch]

Just my opinion...... The cheek piece is still too long, you can still remove more, front and rear. You will find that when you can handle original pieces, that they are SKINNY! As my friend and mentor, Mr Martin says, "Take off wood till you're scared, then take off a little more".