frizzen spring tension

[Don Steele]

I've been seeing some discussion wherein the amount of force necessary to open the frizzen has been mentioned. I've been surprised to see recommendations run the gamut from 4 lbs. of force, all the way down to 2 oz. of force.
I would have thought there would be a much more narrow range. Are there so many variables to good lock function that the pressure to open the frizzen can be correct over that wide a range of values...

[Candle Snuffer]

Don, I know a guy that took his frizzen spring completely off and claimed his lock worked better that way.  I wouldn't recommend this to anyone, but I saw it and couldn't believe it.  I expect if he had taken the time to polish his parts and the area where metal rides on metal, his lock probably would have worked fine.

I know my John Bailes lock has a short light throw against the frizzen and so I use the good ol' black English Flints, while my large Siler locks seem to work well with any flint striking the frizzen.

[Don Steele]

That's amazing. NO spring..?
Who would have thought.
I'm working with a "New Version" T/C lock that exhibits "gouging" of the frizzen face, and goes through flints much quicker than those of other rifles I've seen and owned.
Those observations got me wondering if the frizzen spring was providing too much resistance, so I undertook a search onthe topic and found such a WIDE variety of experiences posted by others that I thought I'd ask the question here.
I'm pretty sure an overall polishing of metal contact points will certainly help, and may give that a try before doing any cutting/grinding on anything.

[Bob Roller]

Don,
The amount of force needed to open a frizzen is as variable as the weather.
There is no one set of rules that apply.I make locks on an almost daily basis
and each one has its own preferences and peculiarities and that changes when
the lock if fastened to the rifle or whatever it's used on.
The removal of the frizzen spring serves no useful purpose and I can see how
that would work on a hunting rifle,it wouldn't because constant attention would
have to be given to make sure the frizzen was closed over the priming.That means carrying the rifle at level
all the time.
A lock is a small spring driven engine and like all engines,it needs preventive maintainence inside and out.
I have seen them badly plugged with old powder fouling and that is nothing but neglect.

Bob Roller

[Hungry Horse]

 This is one of the reasons Bob's time cost so much. You have to know what you are seeing, and be able evaluate the possible advantage, or disadvantage of modifying the spring, to change the resistance. There are an incredible number of variables. Its not something you can learn from a book. It just takes a lot of time, and a lot of locks, and a lot of mistakes, to get the experience it takes to judge the tension needed to get maximum performance.

                 Hungry Horse

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

What is more important than the tension of the frizzen spring against the frizzen's toe, is the relationship between the mainspring and the frizzen spring.  These two springs have to be a team and a balance of force is the key.  If the mainspring is too strong compared to the frizzen spring, the frizzen will rebound and smash flints.  If it's too weak, it will not kick the frizzen open to expose the pan to the sparks, or the sparks will be few and weak too.  In addition to that phenomenon, ie: spring balance, the frizzen's toe position on the frizzen spring, the toe's position relative to the pivot screw, and the shape of the top leaf of the frizzen spring, play an enormous role in how a lock functions.  So frizzen spring tension is just a small part of the whole picture.

[bgf]

I'm watching for information, as my Durs Egg frizzen spring has gone from light to pretty much not there (spring fatigue?).  The mainspring has been declining at about the same rate, but it is about to get where there is no choice but to fix them both...

One other variable that I haven't seen mentioned (maybe it was though is frizzen hardness (or softness) -- that was my first thought when you said "gouging".  

The springs on my relatively new (1 year old) Late Ketland are both stiff and strong, but it doesn't break flints or gouge the frizzen, as long as the flints are correctly sized and positioned.  I was concerned that the frizzen was too hard when I rec'd the lock, but that appears to have been a non-concern.  On the other hand, ultra-stiff springs and a very soft frizzen might lead to gouging?

PS.  Once gouging starts, it seems to get worse as the flint "catches".  Smoothing up the frizzen with some sandpaper every 500-1000 shots seems to help restore functionality for me.

[Long Ears]

Good stuff here. I've not yet had the courage to try to tune one myself. I've got the heat treat oven for the springs but there is an awful lot of experience needed to get them "right". I have had great luck with Chambers frizzen's and springs but no so good with others. Bob

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

When a frizzen gets to the point that it's breaking flints, or wearing them more quickly than it should, I set it on a 6" wheel and make it smooth again.  I can do this three times, usually, before it needs to be replaced.  I shoot every Sunday for about four hours, but I cycle the guns, so they don't get pouty (or worn too quickly).

[Don Steele]

Lots of great information here. Thank You all for the responses.
Getting the "balance" right between all the parts is what seems to be the key. For my T/C lock, perhaps a good place to start will be some mild polishing of metal-to-metal contact surfaces and a resurface to smooth the face of the current frizzen before going any further.

[Dphariss]

I've been seeing some discussion wherein the amount of force necessary to open the frizzen has been mentioned. I've been surprised to see recommendations run the gamut from 4 lbs. of force, all the way down to 2 oz. of force.
I would have thought there would be a much more narrow range. Are there so many variables to good lock function that the pressure to open the frizzen can be correct over that wide a range of values...

Most are too light.
The reason there is such a wide range is most people figure if it will spark its good.
A stiffer frizzen spring will generally break fewer flints and will keep the frizzen closed with its supposed to be closed.
I guess I could put my trigger pull gauge on some frizzens but I suspect a couple of mine are over 4 pounds.
Dan

[Hungry Horse]

Don;

  When I first got into muzzleloading, there were several places you could pick up cheap flintlocks, that if you messed them up, you weren't out much. These weren't even remotely close to the quality of the average lock today, but if you played with them a lot, and held your mouth just right, they would work alright for a short time.  I probably ruined a pickup full of them. Dixie's old F1 flintlock was cheap, and if you put a lot of shop time into it could be made usable. CVA was making their copy of the Maslin lock that could be tuned to work pretty well too. Many CVA dealers had a parts board that allowed customers to buy replacement parts right at their local gun store. The market has changed, and these cheap "practice" locks, aren't around much anymore. Now the best way to go if you are a kinetic learner like myself, is to buy a lock kit from manufacture that has readily available parts, to replace the learning curve ones that don't work anymore. I use a lot of Chambers locks, because the parts are readily available, and the quality is good. Chamber's customer service is pretty good also.

                      Hungry Horse

[Dphariss]

That's amazing. NO spring..?
Who would have thought.
I'm working with a "New Version" T/C lock that exhibits "gouging" of the frizzen face, and goes through flints much quicker than those of other rifles I've seen and owned.
Those observations got me wondering if the frizzen spring was providing too much resistance, so I undertook a search onthe topic and found such a WIDE variety of experiences posted by others that I thought I'd ask the question here.
I'm pretty sure an overall polishing of metal contact points will certainly help, and may give that a try before doing any cutting/grinding on anything.

The angle the flint strikes the frizzen effects this and ALL frizzens have a groove where the flint first strikes. Some are just more pronounced than others.

Dan

[Don Steele]

Thanks again,
My T/C frizzen has that groove...I was thinking it needed re-hardening.
All things considered, after reading all the responses, I'm going to go with some polishing..without removing metal...and see how it goes.

[Bob Roller]

Polishing is only blending various tool marks. To get rid of the impact
groove on that frizzen.metal MUST be removed.

Bob Roller

[Don Steele]

Got it Bob....your expertise on locks is most appreciated.

[Standing Bear]

Unfortunately many companies only case harden their frizzens. Removing too much material can get u into relatively soft steel.  The gouge may already be too deep. If rehardenig is required get it thru hardened.
TC

[LRB]

  I don't know of any American made locks using a CH frizzen. All the CH frizzens I have encountered are imports. A cased frizzen is not necessarily a bad thing. It depends on the depth of the case. Most, if not all 18th c. frizzens were cased, but most were a deep case done by pack hardening.

[Bob Roller]

Back in the day when new made flintlocks were first making their appearance,
case hardening AS A SOLE SOURCE of hardness was common. Some of these locks
were hammered and filed out of materials that were of questionable merit and case
hardening was the only way known to make them spark and that assumes the rest of the
lock was working.
   Along about 1956,Chet Shoults of LaPeer Michigan offered a lock of very good quality
and in three price ranges.He advertised them as having frizzens made from 8620 and case hardened.
They worked for a while and then heavy use soon broke thru the case and a lot of them were then
equipped with a face or "half sole" of high carbon steels made from old files and saw blades and while they looked bad,they fired and fired well and some still are.
In 1962,due to illness.Chet Shoults had to relinquish control of the dies wqhich were and still are very
finely crafted,aluminum,milled and polished cavity instead of the plastic and bubble gum types used later
for short run work.I started making that lock using the external parts and had trouble with the frizzens
because of the 8620 and started questioning the use of it when better materials like 1095 were available
and eventually,better parts were being produced. Quality control in those days from most foundries was
unobtainable and probably not understood as to why one little part was so critical.One lock company that was hurt by the lack of quality control by the foundries was L&R. One of their fellows told me that most foundries working then had NO idea as to what they were making and offered nothing in the QC area.They were the victims of companies beyond their control and there was certainly NO deliberate effort to offer a botched product.
In 1980,I started making the Bailes lock for a German shop and the german paid for all the parts made at a foundry in Tn. and the owner or shop foreman recommended 52-100 and it worked beyond expectation and quite a number of those locks are still in service after three or four or more users with no reported problems after 30+ years.I still make a Shoults lock once in a while and it has frizzens of 52-100 and I boost them a bit
with Kasenit to do a carbon restoration. The current owner of L&R,Bill Cox told me he uses 52-100 on all their
frizzens and wishes he'd done it sooner.I use the external parts from the Manton,Egg and Ashmore locks and have had no complaints about frizzen performance at the present time.
Getting to the post about the TC frizzens,I have seen a number of them recased in the armory at Friendship
by Willy Boitnott when he was working there.This was a shop fix using a welding torch,Kasenit and the after a
melting time,dropping it in water.Simple but effective and the rifle got back on the line.

Bob Roller

[Hungry Horse]

This is the subject that gets guys going around the campfire, because everybody has a cure. I have had cheap locks that were surefire ( some of those nasty early CVA's from Spain for example), and I have had some that you couldn't make fire. I used to grab up every old Dixie F1 flintlock I could find, just for the frizzen. I got pretty cleaver at adapting that frizzen to a lot of small rifle locks. In fact my old North Carolina hog rifle, has a much later offering by Dixie on it, but the frizzen is a reworked old F1 I picked up at a gun show.
 The lock/frizzen that has given me the most heartburn, is the old Lott marked trade gun lock. This thing was made by several Italian firms over the years. The frizzen material, and the lock geometry changed several times as well. So,you can pretty much figure out if the geometry way off by looking. But, the frizzen material can give you fits. Some of those frizzens will take a deep case, and some won't. I have one on my bench that I call the retirement project. It will take a case, to the point that the flint just polishes it without a spark, and when you try to temper it, it gets so soft it stops the hammer fall.

                      Hungry Horse