Author Topic: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil  (Read 20903 times)

Silky

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Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« on: November 05, 2013, 06:00:00 AM »
I've looked at past posts and read about a million different finishing combinations... any experience putting tung oil over a couple coats of boiled linseed oil?  I've applied four coats of BLO to a maple stock, and while I like the subtle sheen, I'd like to put a durable final coat over that.  Any suggestions?

Thanks!

- Tom
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 06:07:57 AM by Silky »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2013, 08:18:32 AM »
Should work ok.
But you need to know the linseed is actually dry. Some of the store bought stuff is pretty slow sometimes.

Dan
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tuffy

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2013, 12:42:26 PM »
If you wiped off the excess BLO it should work OK but wait at least a week to make sure the BLO is completely dry. Formby's tung oil is a good choice but be advised it will give you a high shine. I've never found a tung oil that didn't give a high shine. Even those that say "Satin Finish" have an awfully high shine.

              CW
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 12:45:11 PM by dogface »

Birddog6

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2013, 03:07:37 PM »
The Formbys will leave just as much shine as you let it. It can be shiny or
dull or low luster, all depends on how you apply it & work it after it is dry.
YOU have to learn what you can make the finish do.

I don't mess with BLO  much as I don't like the finish it leaves.  However,  the last
one a guy brought by for help  & the BLO  would not dry, we wiped it clean
with rags & turpentine & let it sit each day in the hot sun for a week. Rubbed
all the wood down with 1000 grit wet/dry auto body paper from NAPA. Vacuumed
then wiped with a tack cloth.  Stock was black walnut.
Then applied  Formbys Satin Tung Oil, wetting the very tip of his index finger &
rubbing that into about a 4" area til it was completely dry. You have to take your time.
Most guys get in a hurry & apply too much of it. Did that all over, next day rubbed down
lightly with 1500  grit wet/dry paper  (careful on the edges) repeated this about 6
times. Last time very light wipe with 2000 grit paper.  Then wax with Howards paste
wax or Renaissance paste wax.

Keith Lisle
  .

Offline Captchee

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2013, 03:55:58 PM »
I've looked at past posts and read about a million different finishing combinations... any experience putting tung oil over a couple coats of boiled linseed oil?  I've applied four coats of BLO to a maple stock, and while I like the subtle sheen, I'd like to put a durable final coat over that.  Any suggestions?

Thanks!

- Tom

 thats how i do it tom .
 Bl in and of itself never completely dries .  While we think  it is , because if feels like it is or we have given it time to try , its still not truly dry . Over time  dirts and oils get into it and  create the darker patinas often seen on older or original guns .

BL also doesn’t work very well  to seal the stock as its only about 10% impervious to moisture .

As I said I lay Tung over the top . Just a couple coats and then buff it back to remove the shine .
 Tung is IMO a much better finish . However it penetrates so deep and being 90% impervious to moisture , if you ever need a repair . Its pretty hard to stain through it . But if you put it over BL its will bind to the BL while at the same time not  penitrate  into the stock . So if you need a repair your can simply sand though the oils , do the repair and your stain will take

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2013, 04:51:32 PM »
I have not used 4 coats of oil on a maple stock in I don't know how long.
Shop made linseed with a some resins added works very well. But store bought "Boiled" LS oil is paint thinner and not suitable for gunstock use.

This is two coats with almost no build up.

One seal coat all the stock would take. Light viscosity shop made oil with some real turpentine added.
Then a coat of heavier oil mostly wiped off after application.
Its also possible to do a one coat finish, as was done on many guns, using a fairly heavy bodied LS oil varnish. This simply coats the wood and should work on scraped finishes.
Either of these will produce a durable finish and its the correct finish for most long rifles.
But is folks insist on using store bought oil or make the shop made oil in too large a batch it will not work as well. If stored for a long time then it needs to be reheated it seems. I used to make the stuff in one gallon lots but after a couple of years it seems like it does not perform the same.
Done right is nice weather it will fill and finish Black Walnut in just a few days. With none of the hair pulling I have experienced with store bought gunstock and varnish finishes.
Dan
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sweed

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2013, 11:31:41 PM »
Dphariss
Can you explain what you are calling "shop made oil"? Is that just raw oil that you boil yourself? 

Your right on about so call boiled linseed oil, it ain't boiled at all,  ???  ::)  just some chems. added to make it dry quicker, and totally do away with its advantages.

sweed

Offline Captchee

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2013, 03:10:10 AM »
 i would agree with dan that store bought Bl is not  truly BL  as it has additions to it to it .
same with Tung oil .
  however i would disagree that it isnt suitable for gun stocks
. all of these stocks were done with  store bought BL . normaly i do 3 coats . then another 2 -3 coats of tung over that .

 over black walnut


 over maple


 over black walnut


 over english walnut


over cherry

Offline Robby

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2013, 01:37:21 PM »
Capchee, You have a nice soft looking finish on all those different varieties of wood, but its hard to believe that you are able to close and level the pores on black walnut and english walnut with only three coats linseed and two-three coats tung oils. Are you boiling down the linseed oil for your initial application or modifying it some how? Thank you.
Robby
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Offline Captchee

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2013, 03:56:35 PM »
 No Robbie , i dont  boil down or change the oils .
 what i  do is float the stock with BL first . by flood im mean get it slobbering wet .
 i let it set for  15  to 20 minutes and then wipe of the excess .
 I let that set for at least 24 hours . But that time depends on how warm it is . If your temperatures are cooler , it takes longer to dry to the touch .
 Once the flood coat is dry , every coat after that is  a rubbed in coat ..
 Ie,  small amounts are  put onto the stock and rubbed in , slow working tell the complete stock is coated . Then its aloud to dry again .
 Before I do the 3rd coat in then wet sand , VERY lightly  so as to remove any chanced imperfections. Then the  3rd coat is put on ..
Once that’s dry , I then start rubbing in my Tung coats .. As those coats become dry , I lightly buff between coats .  Each coat is then hand rubbed  not drawn  on .

 Now , Im guessing here but possibly one of the problems that dan may have been alluding to is that  with the store bought BL  what happens is that as you  work it between coats and try and   get a smooth finish , you get areas  that  have a dull  finish /sheen .  You have to work that out  or it will effect the next coat . what I do is just buff  it tell the sheen becomes even .
 But be careful as its very easy to  work clear thought the  oil and back to the wood

As to filling the pours on walnut .
 If you want to do that or not depends on  what type of finish your shooting for .
  There are basically 2 types of stock finishing .  These are called English/European finish or American finish .
  With the English finish , the pours of the wood are not completely filled . While with the American finish , they are . Around the beginning of the 20th century the American finish started to become very popular  and is most times what we see today .
 But prior to that , the English finish was what was  most common  on walnut stocks .

So if you wanting the American type finish on walnut , then you need to use a thicker oil . More base coats , a filler  and  wet sanding .
 Frankly im not ask to do that type of finish much anymore . But it can be a wonderful finish  on a really nice piece of wood
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 04:05:16 PM by Captchee »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2013, 05:05:53 PM »
6-8 coats vs two on maple. I generally finish black walnut in 6 coats or so.
Yeah I have used store bought oil as it comes years ago. Just as in the past its a good basis for a stock finish and will work right out the can but I don't like spending that much time then having put something else over it. Why not just use Tung oil from the start and be done with it? Of course its not something one is likely to find in the original finish on a longrifle but it is still  a good finish and much better than plastic which has a very short service life in comparison but is "new and improved".
All "boiled" Linseed oils have driers added. Just heating the oil will not greatly change the drying characteristics. The next thing is the store bought oils are not acid neutralized and this acidity increases the drying time of most store bought oils.
Back in the day they used various drier metals, often lead acetate or forms of iron or other metals might be used. They also added some resins in most cases to give the finish greater water resistence, IE make it a little harder. But these often require more care and knowledge than just dumping something in the oil and heating it.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to waterproof a stock. Finishes that are hard enough to waterproof a stock will invariably check or crack and then leak more water than "permeable" finishes that don't check or crack.
By the way a great many, millions in fact, of American Service rifles. 1903s and M1s and others were finished with RAW linseed oil that virtiually never dries. A dry white rag put in the buttstock cavity of a 60 year old rifle will come out a week or month later yellowed and smelling of the LS oil it has absorbed. Why raw oil? It is far less likely to produce a light reflecting shine and best appearance was not the primary concern.
Would I use this on a gunstock? No. But its seen a lot of use and is a practical and useful finish for some purposes. It is my understanding that the later Cold War era wooden stocked military firearms were Tung Oil. Would raw LS it be a useful finish for a hunting rifle. Sure.  I wonder what the "grease" finish a clerk on the Upper Missouri somewhere circa 1840 was when he was telling another man coming to the post to have a "grease finish" put on his double barrel shotgun (IIRC) rather than a shiny varnish.
The Bridger Hawken has a brown varnish finish that is worn away in the high wear areas but is largely intact on the buttstock and while I have never seen the rifle out of the case it appears to be completely free of any crazing or chips. This parallels the finish found on 1870s single shot rifles though many were finished a with lighter colored soft varnish that again did not check or break unless very seriously dented or cut. Similar, if not identical varnishes were used on firearms made in earlier times.  These are not as durable as an oil varnish finish that is IN the wood but they are very easy to apply and better for a gun that is actually used than some of the much harder finishes used on musical instruments and furniture. In modern times we lost the knowledge that produced these small batches of oil varnish gunstock finish. As the industrial revolution hit full stride and modern paint and varnish making really took off cheap mass produced varnishes took over in gun making as well. Bar top varnish is popular is some 1930-50s gunsmithing books and BLO is written off since the writers have no real knowledge of finish making and think the commercially available BLO is what was used as a linseed oil finish in the past whenin reality LS oil is just the base for the finished product. Something they were never taught to make as a gunsmith of the 18th or early 19th C would have been. So BLO which had been used for a very long time successfully as a stock finish suddenly became "no good" for gunstock finishes because the end user was ignorant due to lack of proper training, of how to properly make and use it. This resulted in people using thin oil  and as a result believing that a linseed oil finish was horribly labor intensive when in reality its one of the least labor intensive if the oil is properly prepared. But of course this is not acceptable to people used to cheap modern finishes made for people with little or no wood finishing knowledge to put on a book case or coffee table.

Dan


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Offline Robby

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2013, 05:20:41 PM »
Thanks Captchee for the explanation. Most of my experiments with finish have been with information from Dan, and I have been very happy with the results. The finish always has a nice soft, authentic look and feel, that doesn't translate well in pictures, well not my pictures anyway. Thanks again fellows!!
Robby
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2013, 05:46:17 PM »
Filling Black or European walnut does not require a filler, it does not require wet sanding (cold chills) both are modern constructs meant to overcome failings in the finish being used. Wet sanding is one of the most tedious and futile pass times I have ever embarked on. But its popular apparently with gunsmithing schools and perhaps with people addicted to paint thinner fumes if the finish used is a modern varnish laden with Stoddard solvent etc. Having wet sanded a considerable number of Black Walnut gunstocks using modern varnishes I can assure you its not the best way to go either from ease of finishing or for your health. Wet sanding a linseed oil finish is a complete waste of time as well. If the finish is so hard as to require sandpaper something has been done wrong.
English guns, while in England anyway, had the finish renewed after every hunting season. There were, from what I have been told, people who traveled around doing this work.  The fact that gunstock finishes, in our context, were not maintenance free is obvious in looking at the Bridger Hawken and some other old guns in which the original varnish has been partly or completely worn  away.  These stocks can degrade at an alarming rate in some cases and need to be reoiled at the least to prevent the surface of the wood of literally falling off in thin layers as dust.

Dan
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2013, 09:07:45 PM »
My N.E. Fowling gun has it's maple stock finished with  Tried and True Varnish Oil.
It has stood up very well over the last 4 years of woods use. Do you have any experience with this stuff, Dan ?  It seems to be about the closest thing to home made that I have found. And..it's non toxic, which is important to my asthmatic lungs  :)

Offline Captchee

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2013, 03:12:24 AM »
 Dan
 to answer your question as to why not just go with Tung .
well i used to do that as it’s a very good sealer  and creates a very hard finish . However as I stated before . Tung oil penetrates very deep   that along with it being  impervious , if you ever have to do a repair , its near impossible to  stain through . What I would end up having top do was float  the color within the oil .  Doing so  then distorts the quality of figure  in comparison to the original finished figure .
Steve Zen was actually the  one that lined me out  on using Tung over BL .
  What that does is that because the BL has a  smaller  structure then the Tung , the  Tung  bonds  with  the BL and  yet does not penetrate the wood . So if a repair is ever needed , you can latterly sand  thought the finish , do the repair  and then  get a  matched stain job . Where tung  along wont allow you to do that .

 Now as to  needing to fill the pours on walnuts . Be they  English , black , Claro , Turkish or Bastogne . Again this depends on the finish being requested  and the  grade of blank itself .
As you well know  a really nice hard  higher grade walnut  will have very little open pours . Thus little to no  filling may be needed .
 
Why wet sand . Well  the reason I wet sand is I  want a nice even finish.
 In enviably some where there will be some dust or other particles that land on the stock while its drying . Wet sanding removes that . It also  helps fill the more open grain . Again if that’s what a person is looking for .
 Does a person need to do that ??/ well that’s up to them . I was ask how I get the finish I do and I have described  how I do that .

I would agree that BL  may very well have been the oil most commonly used .
 However through the years I have also used Fax seed, which needs  driers and  walnut  oils  which do not . They also act like linseed in that they never completely dry  and they are not that any more impervious to moisture .  So neither have any real benefit that cannot be obtained from BL .  I might add that both look very much like BL and when finishes I would doubt one could tell if a walnut oil was used vs. a BL .
 Now this is just my opinion and  I am sure others will disagree . But I myself do not feel there are any short cuts to doing a good  strong oil finish .. Everything has its drawbacks .

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2013, 05:39:43 PM »
Linseed ("linen seed") and flax seed oil both are derived from the same source: seeds of the plant that grows flax which is used to make linen. Extraction processes differ, as do additives. What's labeled flax seed oil is usually meant for human consumption, is cold pressed in the absence of oxygen, and needs to be refrigerated or it goes rancid.

I'm puzzled that food grade flax seed oil might be used as a wood finish without adding in some other "stuff" that would make it unsafe to consume.

Wikipedia's little tome is pretty accurate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linseed_oil
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2013, 07:36:14 PM »
yeah, i got  ??? with the reference to "flaxseed oil" here.

I bought 2 gallons of RAW linseed oil back when i reworked my first stock with "old school" guidance from a book by Clyde Baker (1935).  It was hard to find RLO back then (90's).  And it was cheap, I bought all they had (~5 bucks a gallon IIRC).

While it may not be labeled "food grade" I wouldn't hesitate to use it on cutting boards and other wooden food prep surfaces (as us amateurs still get to use carbon steels and wooden things in the kitchen).

I still have 1.8 gallons of the non-toxic oil.  I expect to boil it per Dan's method for my next stock finish.  But I do realize that it may need extra driers/time.

So now they call RLO "Flaxseed" oil.  Less confusion, more money--i get it.  ;)
Hold to the Wind

Offline Captchee

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2013, 02:16:12 AM »
kermit .
 there are basically two categories , non-drying and drying oils . well 3 catagories  if you  include semi -drying oils

semi and non drying oils need to have  driers added in order to have them dry  to a hard finish
 ironically linseed is listed as a  drying oil even though it never truly completely dries .
Flax seed as you said comes from the same plant . Just a different process .
  Not to change the subject but  it also should be noted that as to if a  oil is listed as food grade or not , has little or nothing to do with anything as  most to include linseed and Tung have been used  in food service  for decades and is what  is often used to line can good cans prior to the  food being put in it .
Rubio Monocoat is a Flax seed oil  with modern driers and wax added to it.  .
 Its not linseed . But  IM just a round about way of getting  that result
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 05:49:04 AM by Captchee »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2013, 08:19:06 AM »
Linseed ("linen seed") and flax seed oil both are derived from the same source: seeds of the plant that grows flax which is used to make linen. Extraction processes differ, as do additives. What's labeled flax seed oil is usually meant for human consumption, is cold pressed in the absence of oxygen, and needs to be refrigerated or it goes rancid.

I'm puzzled that food grade flax seed oil might be used as a wood finish without adding in some other "stuff" that would make it unsafe to consume.

Wikipedia's little tome is pretty accurate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linseed_oil

Raw linseed can be used. But it never dries.
So driers are added and resins to make drying oils and varnish. Its not important that stock finish be edible. In fact its detrimental.
 ::)

Dan
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2013, 09:23:40 AM »
A little more on the U.S. government use of RLO, BLO and Tung Oil – because it still affects us today.

Springfield ordered Raw Linseed Oil (RLO) and then turned it into the OLD style of BLO at the Arsenal, such as Dan has been pointing out.  On M1903 stocks, they normally wet the stocks down and wiped the excess oil off and allowed the stocks and hand guards to dry on racks.  They usually put four to six coats of it on during peace time.  They continued to do that at least on the early M1 Garands UNTIL the rear hand guards began charring too much on the underside (right over the barrel breech) and some even caught fire, though only when the rifle was shot more than even usually would have been fired in many firefights.

So Springfield changed to Tung Oil for a couple years on M1 stocks in the first years of WWII, as that finish did not char as the BLO had charred.  Tung Oil was known as “China Oil” in Springfield Armory records.  However, after a couple of years of WWII, they could no longer get it and had to quit using it. 

Then Springfield went back to ordering RLO and making it into BLO, BUT this time they added things so the Rear Hand guards would not char.  Springfield continued with the same basic formula of “New style” BLO right through the wood stocks of M14’s.  However, this was NOT the same formula as was commonly found in the paint sections of Hardware stores. 

Now what has confused people for years is what was “authorized” to be used as the finish on M1 and M14 stocks AFTER they left the Arsenal.  Technical and Supply Manuals authorized both RLO and BLO for use on these stocks.  Supply Officers and even many Ordnance Officers did not know or forgot that the BLO used at the Arsenal was a VERY different blend than what you normally bought at local Hardware stores (that often included petroleum distillates) near the military bases and that’s where Supply Officers often got the oils.  Since RLO was cheaper and was authorized, that’s what they normally bought because they did not know any better.

About the only thing that RLO did for stocks was due to the fact that RLO never fully dries.  It kept the stocks from dry “checking/cracking” and the surface of the wood from drying out so much the outer surface of the wood would dry and become powdery as Dan pointed out.  For rifles used by Marines and Sailors, it SLIGHTLY protected the wood from salt in the air or salt water, until you could wash the stock with clean water to get rid of the salt.  Since RLO barely waives at water vapor going through it, this allowed the salt that mixed with the RLO to be washed out

Generations of those of us in the Armed Forces remember sitting outside in the sun on upside down buckets or on the ground while we rubbed RLO into the wood stocks and wood hand guards.  Most of us were told it was good for the stocks, but I doubt many of us were ever told WHY it was done.  So now we have three or four generations of Armed Forces personnel who were told it was good to rub RLO or low cost commercial BLO into stocks and that’s why so many people know of it, even though it was never a good stock finish. 

Gus

Offline Captchee

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2013, 03:51:19 PM »
Linseed ("linen seed") and flax seed oil both are derived from the same source: seeds of the plant that grows flax which is used to make linen. Extraction processes differ, as do additives. What's labeled flax seed oil is usually meant for human consumption, is cold pressed in the absence of oxygen, and needs to be refrigerated or it goes rancid.

I'm puzzled that food grade flax seed oil might be used as a wood finish without adding in some other "stuff" that would make it unsafe to consume.

Wikipedia's little tome is pretty accurate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linseed_oil

Raw linseed can be used. But it never dries.
So driers are added and resins to make drying oils and varnish. Its not important that stock finish be edible. In fact its detrimental.
 ::)

Dan

LOL Dan ,  unless your a beaver. sorry i just had to kick the can ,  ;D



Nice write up there Artificer
 One of the other problems which you may or  may not recall was that  Linseed , both RLO and BLO  also aloud  lubricants to penetrate. Most notably in the end grain areas .  It wasn’t uncommon  to find  oil rot .  It wasnt however a real big problem tell  the military started going to penetrating type lubricants .
 I can  remember while at Benning , going through stock piles of M1’s and 14’s looking for  oil soaked stocks .  But then those rifles were also surplus rifles that had seen heavy use and were being sent to training bases . So  for the most part had seen heavy use to begin with  .

 Now getting off topic here but   BLO was once also use  for hard wood  flooring applications .
 For some reason  backing the mid to late 1990’s  there started to be a concern with  its use .
 As I recall it was something along the lines of poisoning   much like lead paint . IE  if you gnawed on  a piece of wood that was finished with BLO its  could make you sick ???
 that’s progressed to  the Flax  oils / green oils  coming out .
 Seemed to me at the time and frankly still does , to be a lot about nothing . But that still was the case and  is one of the sales gimmicks of  what’s called Rubio Monocoat which is nothing more then flax seed oil with driers and in some cases dyes being added to it . Its also sold as a single coat oil and it does dry to a very hard finish .Supposedly its  made completely from food safe  compounds ??? don’t know  for sure , just what their marketing said

 Let me also say this so no one takes me wrong.
 I  do like  true BLO . But I prefer Tung oil . But as I said it also has its drawbacks , so I chose to  use Tung over BLO .   And Yes I use store bought BLO so its not true BLO as  Dan and others have mentioned
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 04:26:16 PM by Captchee »

Offline Artificer

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2013, 06:35:20 PM »
Nice write up there Artificer
 One of the other problems which you may or  may not recall was that  Linseed , both RLO and BLO  also aloud  lubricants to penetrate. Most notably in the end grain areas .  It wasn’t uncommon  to find  oil rot .  It wasnt however a real big problem tell  the military started going to penetrating type lubricants .
 I can  remember while at Benning , going through stock piles of M1’s and 14’s looking for  oil soaked stocks .  But then those rifles were also surplus rifles that had seen heavy use and were being sent to training bases . So  for the most part had seen heavy use to begin with  .

That’s an extremely good point about RLO and BLO allowing modern petroleum based preservative oils to penetrate and rot the wood.  Yes, I’ve seen it in 03, M1 and M14 stocks on active duty and in the hundreds of stock sets I’ve refinished over the years.  We also ran into it on the M14’s that had gone through 5th Echelon, Depot Rebuild that we used to build into NM M14’s.  Some times we didn’t realize it until we cut the grooves into the stocks for the “glass bedding” and then we pitched the stock and got another.

In the original period, they didn’t have to worry about petroleum based penetrating/preservation oils.  However as Dan pointed out so well, from time to time even the good/old BLO required one to add more finish to the stock from time to time.

Gus 

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2013, 05:38:18 AM »
I am not sure that anything will completely prevent petroleum from getting into the wood if enough is used.
For the same reason that its virtually impossible to keep water out oil can be even more insidious. In our context, the Kentucky rifle its virtually impossible since no one really wants the stock put in a tank of epoxy and a vacuum pulled on it to assure penetration. For one thing i makes the stock heavy and the finish always looks plastic.
Military guns are coated with grease for storage and the grease is really just an oil with thickeners, the oil can separate over time and flow where its not wanted.
The military arms with the severely oil soaked stocks are generally from preservation storage over years or decades.
Saw some really grim examples of this at a CMP match I attended this year. They had some M1Cs and/or Ds and some were REALLY oily and these had been cleaned up for sale.
Nobody could oil one this much in normal use.

Dan
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2013, 10:13:56 AM »
Grease was used by the U.S. Military as a preservative when arms were shipped from the Arsenals to the military units, but they were then cleaned and stored with oil on them and not too much oil.  They knew that arms stored for long periods with grease or too much oil would damage/ruin gun stock wood. 

Springfield Armory stored 1863 Rifle Muskets left over from the Civil War, all the way up to when the Armory closed in 1968, by them being placed in large wooden two tier cabinets that came to be called “Organs of Muskets.”  They were not stored with grease on them, but rather oil on the iron/steel parts only and wiped down afterwards.  Before they were shipped out during the Civil War, they greased them down for shipping.  In the 1980’s, Springfield Armory NHS was cleaning the rifle muskets back to the original condition on a couple “organs of muskets” they still had and when I saw them, they had about half the muskets cleaned in one cabinet.  There was no grease on the muskets. 

Springfield M1903 and M1 Garands were coated with grease for shipment to military units, but they were also cleaned when they arrived and then only used oil to preserve them.  Military instructions called for cleaning the grease off Rifle Muskets through M1 Garands when they arrived at the unit and then grease was not allowed as a preservative.

During the huge rebuild programs of the post WWII era, beginning about 1947, they had dry preservatives they used on M1’s, M1 Carbines, Thompson .45’s, M1911/A1 pistols, etc. that they sealed up in what looks like oil drums for long term storage and so the drums could be placed outside for storage in “secure” areas.  The idea was to save on the cost of building more warehouses to store them.

Now metal spare/repair parts were stored in grease for long term storage, of course.  Replacement M1 and M1 Carbine stocks were often stored for long term storage by using a heavy brown color cloth and then a green color cloth later.  Both of these types of cloth were waxed, but not greased, when used for wood stocks and hand guards.  The wax was meant to keep them from absorbing too much water vapor or in case the stocks got wet.

Where we see the M1903’s, M1903A3’s, M1’s and M1 Carbines coated with a heavy coat of grease from CMP,  those rifles came back from allied governments overseas.  The worst cases of grease/oil impregnated rifles that CMP has sold over the years are the guns that came back from Greece.  You can identify them by the light tan color grease used that is more like tallow than what we think of petroleum grease.  Of course, some of the guns that came back from Greece, were still in the original grease packing that was done by U.S. Arsenals when they were shipped overseas originally. It was just that the Greeks never bothered to clean off the preservative shipping grease and then oil them, as was the required procedure for U.S. Military Units.  Also, some guns that came back to CMP from the Netherlands had thick coats of petroleum grease, but many came back oiled and fairly dry. 

Gus

Offline Captchee

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Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2013, 03:48:04 PM »
 It also depends on what is being called grease . Cosmoline is not grease   in that it’s a preservative not a lubricant . Its often confused as grease . It also can be a real pain to get off once  it began to age and dry .

As to vacuum forming .  Weapons and tooling is often sent  coated in Cosmoline  and then vacuum packed . The packing isn’t to draw the Cosmoline  into the gun . Its done as added  protection so as to remove all oxygen . This protects against rust and  helps insure that the Cosmoline  doesn’t dry out after long term storage .

When it comes to oils , they all have somewhat different penetrating properties  d to their monocular make up .   Take Tung oil . It penetrates very deep . There really is no need to vacuum pack so as to draw it in deeper . Stocks that have had  tung oil used as a finish , without a base  oil prior  are very hard to re stain unless you get below the depth of the  oil penetration, which in itself is very hard to do as the oil will penetrate softer areas more deeply then harder ones .