Crescent butt rifles

[DaveP (UK)]

Never handled one, but I've gathered that the idea is to locate the butt in the point of the shoulder / armpit rather then the usual shoulder notch, and I'm guessing that the reason for doing so would be to make it easier to control the tendency of a long barrel to make the butt plate ride up. (If I wear the wrong clothing I can get this even with a small rifle - hence the guess.)
Would a properly fitted crescent butt rifle need more cast off than a properly fitted conventional stock?
The recoil would be experienced a little further from the body centre line. Would this be a disadvantage in practice?
I suppose the underlying question is: If you were specifying a gun for your own use, and accuracy was a consideration, would you choose or avoid a crescent butt?


I was in two minds about whether this should go here or in Blackpowder shooting - Apologies if I've got it wrong!

[galamb]

I have built a couple of Ohio's for myself and used the rather severe crescent butt plates.

And you are correct. They are not "shouldered" like most rifles the crescent actually kinda locks right in to the extreme upper bicep area of the arm where it meets the shoulder (the lower "point" of the crescent sits in the armpit. (if you were wearing a shirt with a pocket, the butt plate would be beside the extreme edge of the arm side of the pocket)).

I didn't adjust my typical cast-off on the stocks, but instead of having my cast off line run to the nose of the comb to intersect the center line, I continued it to the rear of the tang (so my wrists are not parallel to the center line of the rifle which I guess does, in essence, increase the cast off. This may cause an issue with the wrist in the future (weakened?), but only time will tell - working fine so far).

I find when you (shoulder) the rifle the upper part of your arm naturally moves more in line with the protrusion of your shoulder where you normally would seat the butt (try shouldering a rifle out where you would a crescent plated one and it will illustrate what I'm trying to say (poorly) above).

It's like your arm compensates for the length of pull which is slightly increased (on your body), by "shouldering" further out from the normal point.

As to recoil, I can't comment at all on that. My Ohio's are smaller caliber (40 is the big one), so recoil is not an issue - don't know if I would build a 50 or 54 shooting alot of powder in that style of rifle - at least not for personal use.

[blaksmth]

On the last rifle I made, the cresent is flatter and a longer curve from comb to toe plate and not a lot of convex on the sides as in the rifle pics I posted is a .54 and we have shot it with 110 gr it weighs 10 lbs and is mild as far as recoil is concerned , I fired a few loads with 160 gr FF and a RB and still no recoil. This rifle is a Hawken style the earlier original Hawkens  had a lot of convex in the butt plates and the later ones are a lot flatter.

I have a .69 cal mule ear plains style pistol grip rifle with a 36 in. straight barrel that my dad built that has the earlier style butt plate and with 125.gr FF and a .695 RB  if you shoot it off a bench it is not real pleasant.

[Mark Elliott]

Also remember that when these guns were made,  people shot from a rest position when they could.     There is plenty of documentation of folks shooting from a rest position (seated or prone) for both hunting and target shooting,  at least with a rifle.   As far as I can tell, offhand shooting for sport is a 20th century thing.   I guess it made it more "sporting".

[Chuck Burrows]

I found the best way to gain a pocket on the upper arm as need with a crescent plate is to hold the trigger arm (if right handed the right arm) flat out to the side i.e. raise the elbow to the same level as your shoulder - if you look at late 19th or early 20the century rifles shooting manuals you can see the arm set - done this way I can even shoot big bores (plus 58 caliber) using such a hold with no problem. It takes a bit to learn the method but once done it becomes automatic and works fine een for flat plates.

[smylee grouch]

Crescent butt plate rifles are made to shoot off the arm which means on the arm and not on the shoulder. My take on the subject anyway.

[Bob Roller]

The crescent butt plates are good looking but for my own use,nothing is better
that the English sporting/target rifles of the mid 19th century.They were,as far
as I know the rifles that brought the muzzle loaders to their conclusion.

Bob Roller

[Chuck Burrows]

Bob - yep some of those are my favorites and I agree they were the apogee of muzzleloading arms - it still ticks me off even after 40 years that some one stole my 1850 era Rigby in 450 express...

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Above is a picture of a S. Hawken styled rifle using what TOW calls the Bridger butt plate.  This one has seen quite a bit of filing to make it look like an original I admire, and if anything, I increased the crescent.  This rifle weighs 10.75 pounds in .62 cal.  I shoot 127 grains FFg GOEX and a .613" ball all day long without any discomfort at all.  Chuck's description on mounting the rifle is great.  This butt plate does not sit in the small of my arm between my bicep muscle and my shoulder.  I have my upper arm parallel to the ground and raise the rifle to my eye, rather than bring my eye down to the rifle.  This 'heads-up' posture permits me to place the butt against the muscle of my shoulder, and the fact that it is not a flat butt plate doesn't even enter into it.  At 6'2" tall and 215 pounds I also find 13 1/2" lots of LOP too.  So often I see guys crawling their stocks like they are trying to find their scope.  No wonder they'll never catch on.

[mountainman70]

Hey Taylor,that is one sweet Hawkin rifle.I have one similar,in 62 also,built for me by my teacher,Robert Walden.Mine is also comfortable to hold and shoot.Love them Hawkinses!!!Dave

[stuart cee dub]

Crescent buttplates are often much maligned .
As modern shooters we often wonder what were they thinking in the 19th century when these were popular?
I am talking about heavy for caliber barrels, and often pea bore .
These guys were shooters and they knew what they were up to .Most of these guns were made to order for specific customers .  

The real advantage is that for target shooting it very constantly puts the rifle but on the same place on your body for shooting .I will not build a target rifle without one .If they are too big they will not consistantly align either .And if the rifle is heavy the recoil is negated .

[DaveP (UK)]

Thank you for your thoughts. I'm working my way through a number of ideas at the moment. Obviously I have a slightly different local history to most of you and my ideas of what a "proper" muzzle loader should look like have been pretty well determined by the likes of the Brown Bess and the Enfield rifle. Crescent butts have always seemed nothing more than a fashion, from a long way away, and one that, for whatever reason, didn't last.
As I mentioned earlier, I have already had problems caused by butt plate movement. I had considered trying to find one of those Aluminium butt plates with a hook to fit under the armpit. (They don't seem to be at all common these days) Its been dawning upon me that as a builder I could do worse than consider a butt plate that engages the body in such a positive manner. If it works for me I'm sure I could learn to like the looks of it! I still wonder if there might be a reason for this design dropping out of use, but then, perhaps that is fashion...
One of my objectives in making my own gun is to end up with a gun that fits properly, in other words is comfortable to use and helps me make the most of whatever potential as a marksman I might have. A heads up posture is exactly what I think I want - thanks for using the phrase and reminding me!
I guess it's about time to start work on a try stock 

[Acer Saccharum]

There's an iron schuetzen buttplate avilable. It's very heavy.  You could also make a hook style butt by shaping the wood of the buttstock to have an integral hook.

[flehto]

Grew up shooting ruffed grouse and through trial and error and out of necessity,   developed a very efficeint, quick mount of the shotgun....when the butt hits the chest, no head adjustment on the comb....just pull the trigger.  Have also "jump shot"  a few deer using the same mount.

Built Hawken style rifles for myself and customers and don't like the crescent buttplates because they "screw up" my normal mount. My Hawken has a much flatter buttplate ....doesn't look as good as the deeper crescent BPs, but I can manage a chest mount w/ it.

IMO, contorting ones body to accommodate a feature that no longer persists on modern guns, is adding difficulty to shooting. People can shoot whatever suits them and possibly shoot well....I guess I just didn't want to change habits.....Fred

[Acer Saccharum]

It really depends what kind of shooting you're going to do...jump shooting deer, or offhand, bench target shooting. Each stock design would have different considerations, and configurations.

I like the hook for offhand shooting with a heavy barrel. A schuetzen with Swiss style buttplate and conforming cheeckpiece will really lock your face and shoulder into consistent positions. This is great on the target range. But hopeless in the woods with heavy clothing.

[greybeard]

I did this gun for hunting many years ago. 15-16  by 30 .by .50.
But plate from a wrecked English gun  [ with positive pitch you can shoot it all day with minimal discomfort. Bob

[hanshi]

I've owned a few guns with deep, crescent butt plates; they ranged in caliber from .32 to .50.  I tried the upper arm mount a few times and compared it with the usual shoulder mount.  I could see no advantage to the arm mount.  I just shoot everything from the shoulder and it works for me. 

Though not as big a guy as Taylor, 5'4", I can handle an lop a little past 13".  But 12.5" to 13" works best for me along with a shoulder mount and high arm position.