How much is a signature worth?

[Habu]

Sometime next year, I may have a chance to purchase a rifle I've been watching since about '81.  I could use some help in figuring out what to offer. 

I could come up with an offer based on condition, look at past auctions etc, but the confound is that the rifle is signed on the barrel (N. Beyer).   Can someone give me an idea of how this will affect the value of the rifle?

Thanks,
Jim

[jdm]

                         Years ago I bought an unsigned rifle by a important maker or maybe I should say a very desirable maker . I was told by a respected collector after he saw the gun that a signature would add five grand.  If that was true or not I don't know. More value for a signed gun . Sure , but why get got up in that . If there is no doubt who made it and you've Benn chasing it for thirty four years. Why not just enjoy it.

There are some N. Beyer owners on this forum maybe they  would have a better idea than me.

[mr. no gold]

If a classic N. Beyer rifle, it is solid gold. Better start saving your dollars. They don't come cheap. Saw one at the Las Vegas Show for…maybe I better not say. If it is carved and has a patchbox, it likely is a good gun. Photos?
Dick

[homerifle]

Like most of us you already have a figure in your mind as to what its worth and what you want to spend. If  you have had your eye on this rifle for as long as you say and can afford it. Then why not buy it. You will probably kick yourself later if you don't. I know that in the past when I have hesitated to long the window of opportunity has come and gone. If your at the age most of us are you won't be here long enough to wait 34  more years for it to come around again.

[Avlrc]

Like most of us you already have a figure in your mind as to what its worth and what you want to spend. If  you have had your eye on this rifle for as long as you say and can afford it. Then why not buy it. You will probably kick yourself later if you don't. I know that in the past when I have hesitated to long the window of opportunity has come and gone. If your at the age most of us are you won't be here long enough to wait 34  more years for it to come around again.

I agree. Life is short. Our government is printing money everyday, the value of the dollar is less all the time. To be able to acquire a Kentucky Rifle that you have been drooling over since the eighties, would be a glorious feeling. Sacrifice somewhere else, it will be worth the satisfaction. As to the signature adding value, you bet it does. Hope you get the rifle. Please  share the pictures when you have it.

[HIB]

Sir,  You are being given excellent advice. However, there are a few other considerations you might put into play. There is no correct sequence to the following beyond #1.
1] True and unaltered condition tops the list. Signed helps.
2] Who has owned the gun before '81. What's the provenance?
3] A full understanding of who Nicolas Beyer was ie: did you know he died in the poor house. Are you aware he was a very prolific maker? Probably one of the most prolific.
4] Knowledge regarding which style of Beyer is most desirable and better investment
      a] Fowler style with or without carving
      b] Rifle or smooth gun with Oct/Rd barrel and incise carving
      c] Rifle or Smooth gun with Oct/Rd barrel with mix of raised and incise carving
      d]   "          "         "               "        "   raised carving only
      e]   "          "         "     " full Oct. barrel and incise carving
       f]   "          "         "         "     "      "    and mix of raised and incise carving or
      g]   "          "         "         "     "      "  and raised carving only
      H]  Is it an early or late example?

The above is generally what goes thru the mind of a collector before the cash hits the table.

On the other hand; Everyone here would understand if this gun has been a favorite of yours since '81 and only now becoming available. However, if this has been a long term opportunity you need to have a clear mind as to what has kept you from grabbing the gun earlier. Review all those reasons to make sure they no longer exist.

We have all over paid for a gun we just couldn't "live without". If it's part of the plan it is easier to justify. And being part of a plan the price is soon forgotten [maybe]

The request for pictures is necessary for any of us to provide you with a value range. And that will, most likely, be based on recent auction history.

Best of luck. Beyer is one of my favorites.   HIB

[Habu]

I honestly don't have a figure in mind, or any idea how much I want to spend--and no, I probably can't afford the rifle without sacrifices.  Right now I'm trying to figure out if I can make a respectable offer, and what that might be, if the owner decides to part with it.    If it comes up for sale, I can probably do at least a partial trade. 

I knew where the rifle from '81-'88 or so.  It belonged to a friend of mine, I had access to it pretty much whenever I wanted.  The last time I saw it was when I cleaned and inventoried all of my friend's firearms and books just prior to his death.  I understood the rifle sold at the estate auction, and since I missed the auction I figured it was gone.  I've kept an eye out for it since then. 

I ran into my friend's grandson in September.  Since he's not a shooter, he asked me to look over the guns he'd inherited from his grandfather.  One of those was the Dickert I recently shot for some tests, and when I saw that one I asked about the Beyer.  Turns out he has that one too.

No pictures at this time, I'll try to get some over the coming summer.  It isn't one that is likely to come up at the James Julia auction house.  Other than cleaning, the rifle is un-messed-with as far as restoration etc.  Lock missing, but presumably a conversion to percussion (I don't think it was originally percussion).  Barrel set back, shortened, and bored smooth.  Lancaster architecture (not one of those hideous Roman-nose buttstocks) with some incised carving, and if I remember right, a daisy head patchbox.  There are splinters missing from what is left of the forend, as well as some wood missing below the lock inlet where it looks like a mainspring slipped off the tumbler.  A couple of inlays and the sideplate are missing. 

I'm not sure what there is for provenance; I don't know what accompanied the rifle when the grandson acquired it.  If I remember right, my friend bought it at a farm auction in the '50s, but I don't recall if he had history on it beyond that. 

[Fullstock longrifle]

Yes, post some pictures before you make an offer, the daisy head patchbox doesn't sound right for a Beyer, and most are relief carved. With that said, occasionally you'll find a later one with incised carving, but an early Beyer should be relief carved.
Frank

[JTR]

Not to say that its not,,, but you might want to do some research to be sure the rifle is actually a Beyer.
A nice signature on the barrel is great, as long as the architecture and decoration on the rifle matches that makers work. Granted, some makers work varied a great deal, but Beyer wasn't one of those guys. He seemed to have a handful of patchbox designs he favored and a few variations in carving, but for the most part, you can spot a Beyer from a mile away.

Also, check out the signature. I've seen a few pictures of questionable Beyer signatures, and I think there was a discussion here a couple years ago on that topic. According to Dillions writings, adding fake signatures to barrels has been going on at least since 1900 or so. Its easy to find a picture of a correct Beyer signature. As a general description, is cut pretty deep, distinctive, flows well, and always very legible.

Check out Chandlers 1st Patchbox book, pg78/79, and gun # 131 and 132. Is that the same patchbox style? Also a bunch of signatures to compare.

A Beyer as you describe will be on the lower (affordable) end of the price range.
Let's see some pictures!
Good luck. John

[Buck]

Habu,
Would like to see some pictures when you acquire them. Henry has hit all of the combinations with the last 2 being the rarest and most desirable. There are several small details that I have noticed that are always on his top rifles (f & g on HIB's list).
1.) Multiple silver inlays; at the cheek, top of the comb, at the wrist (top and sides), and forward the lock on both sides (barrel pin escutcheons but this is rare).
2.) An engraved brass vent pick holder under the stock forward the toe plate and an engraved brass inlay on the cheek rest.
3.) Cameo carving around the thumb rest incorporated into the tang carving (beaver tail being his best).
4.) 3 (bird tracks) gouges in the beaver tails at the wrist, this detail is always on his best rifles, he always placed 3  (there are some Beck rifles that have 2 of these gouges or bird tracks in the same area, I have often wondered if this might have been the hand of Beyer).
If you can get one in the F or G category you have an opportunity to own one of the best. I believe he is the most under rated of the Grand Masters. When he went full throttle on a rifle the end result was nothing short of excellent.
Buck



  

[Habu]

Thanks for the input guys--I really appreciate it. 

The gun falls into category "e" on Mr. Bishop's hierarchy.  From some of the details I can recall and have in my notes, I'm reasonably sure it is a later rifle. 

I suspect I mis-spoke ("mis-wrote"?) when I described it as having a "daisy-head" patchbox; per my notes, the patchbox looks very much like Kindig's #95, with only one piercing.  Won't be able to get any new pictures til the owner returns to the US this summer, so I'm digging through my negative files looking for the B&Ws I shot in '83.  I wish I'd kept better records of my negative files. . . .

Buck, thanks for the pictures.  That is indeed a very nice rifle!

[Buck]

Habu,
My pleasure, and good luck to you. Post some pictures when you are able. I actually have studied #95 and though it is void of some of the more intricate details it too is a category F. a great rifle.
Buck

[Buck]

Sir,  You are being given excellent advice. However, there are a few other considerations you might put into play. There is no correct sequence to the following beyond #1.
1] True and unaltered condition tops the list. Signed helps.
2] Who has owned the gun before '81. What's the provenance?
3] A full understanding of who Nicolas Beyer was ie: did you know he died in the poor house. Are you aware he was a very prolific maker? Probably one of the most prolific.
4] Knowledge regarding which style of Beyer is most desirable and better investment
      a] Fowler style with or without carving
      b] Rifle or smooth gun with Oct/Rd barrel and incise carving
      c] Rifle or Smooth gun with Oct/Rd barrel with mix of raised and incise carving
      d]   "          "         "               "        "   raised carving only
      e]   "          "         "     " full Oct. barrel and incise carving
       f]   "          "         "         "     "      "    and mix of raised and incise carving or
      g]   "          "         "         "     "      "  and raised carving only
      H]  Is it an early or late example?

The above is generally what goes thru the mind of a collector before the cash hits the table.

On the other hand; Everyone here would understand if this gun has been a favorite of yours since '81 and only now becoming available. However, if this has been a long term opportunity you need to have a clear mind as to what has kept you from grabbing the gun earlier. Review all those reasons to make sure they no longer exist.

We have all over paid for a gun we just couldn't "live without". If it's part of the plan it is easier to justify. And being part of a plan the price is soon forgotten [maybe]

The request for pictures is necessary for any of us to provide you with a value range. And that will, most likely, be based on recent auction history.

Best of luck. Beyer is one of my favorites.   HIB