Author Topic: Riveting an under-rib  (Read 21511 times)

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Riveting an under-rib
« on: February 06, 2014, 06:59:26 AM »
In conjunction with this pistol grip Hawken I'm currently building, I joined the under-rib permanently to the barrel this afternoon.  In the past, I have used one of two methods to do this job, ie:  6x48 screws or soft solder.  I joined this one with rivets.
This rib is from MBS and is milled hollow on the inside, with milled concave sides as well.  It is already considerably lighter than the cold rolled ribs sold by purveyors of muzzle loading parts.  But I have observed by studying photos of original Hawken rifles, that the sides of the rib are usually flat rather than concave.  This commercial rib is not only concave, it has a wide flat portion along the edge that contacts the octagonal bottom flat of the barrel.  So I glued the rib to a 1/2" rod of steel with CA and filed off the concave and flat to create much more authentic and pleasing side flats on the rib.  I polished the sides and the concave rod groove to 180 grit abrasive.
The pegs that will become the anchors for the rib I made from a 3" galvanized finishing nail.  I removed the galvanizing with a file in the lathe, then blued it with cold blue to ensure that all of the non-ferrous stuff was gone.  The nail finished at .127"  I cut the pegs to .430" long, and in the lathe, I made a cut with a parting tool into which the barrel's steel would eventually be staked.
I had to cut off about 4" of the rib to make it fit my project, so I made another peg, drilled a .128" hole through the practice rib, countersunk the concave rod groove with a 1/4" 82 degree countersink, drilled a 1/8" hole 1/8" deep into a  scrap piece of barrel stub, set the rib over it, and riveted it down.  I'm glad I did a dry run, because the punch I used was not too easy to control, and I ended up putting marks on the rib that would be difficult to remove.  The result pleased me in that the rib was very tightly joined to the barrel stub and the rivet was easy to dress off.
So having this success, I proceeded to drill four holes into the rib proper, countersunk the holes, and then temporarily glued it to the barrel for starting the drill into the barrel for the studs.  I then removed the rib, and finished drilling the holes 1/8" deep.  I didn't bother to make a flat bottom in these holes, though that would have perhaps been a good idea.
With the holes in place, I tapped the pegs into them, and staked the barrel steel down to set them permanently.  Then I set the rib over the pegs, and starting at the breech end, riveted the peg into the countersink(s).  Once all four were done, I used a rat tail file to dress off the heads, and polished again to 180 grit.  I'm happy with the result.  ...much less work than soldering.

Here's the same story in pictures...I'll repair the last pictures in a few minutes...


















Two tools that are worth mentioning here, are the staking punch I made, and the method of riveting.  The punch is simply an old nail set that is ground off to about 3/32" across the end, with a 1/8" groove filed into a flat that I ground into one side.  This enables me to get the punch right up close to the peg, and move barrel steel into the recess of the peg.  The riveting was done with two ball peen hammers - a very small one and a bigger one.  I held the ball of the smaller of the two over the end of the peg, floating so I could control where it struck the head of the peg, and striking it with the bigger hammer's face.  Thus I was able to move the peg's metal into the countersink with some precision, without putting craters in the concave rod groove of the rib.

It took practically as long to type and post these images, as it did to do the job.  The next one will go faster too.


« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 04:22:07 AM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2014, 07:39:46 AM »
Excellent description and photos Taylor - that's a first rate job and well thought out.  I too have used the "small hammer big hammer" method for peening in tight areas, plenty of control that way.  By the looks of things here your rivets will hold indefinitely.  I particularly like how you relieved the nails for the barrel material to anchor into.  Thanks for sharing
-Eric
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2014, 07:50:30 AM »
Thanks Eric.   I posted this so that others who might have been thinking about using this system, would see that's it's not that big a deal, and the results are great.  To create the relief for staking, I set the parting tool in the cross feed at a little bit of an angle, then advanced it with the diagonal feed.  You could do the same thing with a file...it doesn't need a lathe for that job.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Old Ford2

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2014, 08:06:15 AM »
I wish I could see some pictures :(
I have been pondering just how I was going to attach my under rib to the Hawken in process.
Fred
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Let the Lord pick the good from the bad!

Offline d-a

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2014, 08:47:24 AM »
Thank you for the pictures and description. You wouldn't happen to have a picture of what you did to the actual under rib. I'm assuming your going to add the silver soldier after riveting the under rib.

Thanks again
d-a

Offline Robby

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2014, 02:09:49 PM »
That's a very good description Taylor, but the pictures do not show, in stead a message that the 'person moved or deleted this image' shows up.
Robby
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2014, 07:36:25 PM »
d-a...there is no need for solder, and if I did solder it, it would be with very low temperature solder with 2% silver.  But the tension of the rivets alone will do the job.
I will use the same silver bearing soft solder to join the rod pipes to the rib...that's next.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline alyce-james

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2014, 08:18:53 PM »
Thanks Taylor S. for sharing your method of riveting an under-rib and additional  "Great" pictures. AJ.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 08:21:24 PM by alyce-james »
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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2014, 08:28:04 PM »
 Sir, how thick is the barrel where you counter sunk the pin? It looks very nice, you can't even tell where the rivet is. A thumbs up Sir!!

Offline flehto

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2014, 08:29:49 PM »
thanks for the pics.....riveting the rib onto the bbl is probably the easiest method....no chance for a broken tap and having to use a bottoming tap to get maximum  amount of threads and soldering is a big job if a large oven isn't available. Makes for a neat job.....Fred

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2014, 08:38:47 PM »
Taylor, would a regular uncoated common nail bo the job? Just won dering why you used the galviized nail.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2014, 08:59:48 PM »
Fred, I used the galvanized nail because it was the right diameter.  I wanted a good metal to metal fit in the holes I drilled into the barrel.  So the pegs are a few thou' oversize, and had to to tapped into the holes.  The galvanize (zink?) was easy to remove.  I think muriatic acid will do the same, but I have none.

The barrel is a Coleraine barrel, tapered 1 1/8" - 1" over 36", and I cut off 2" from the muzzle.  It is .62 cal.  Sinking the holes 1/8" into the bottom flat leaves lots of steel between the end of the peg and the bore, especially since the barrel gets larger as you go toward the breech.  I could give you the exact number of thousandths of an inch, but it doesn't matter.  I left enough that the barrel is not jeopardized or dimpled in the bore from the staking process.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 02:44:01 AM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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Offline PPatch

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2014, 09:25:16 PM »
Really excellent tutorial master Taylor, thank you. I had decided to rivet the under-rib on my Plains rifle and this is just how I will accomplish that.

dp
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Offline d-a

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2014, 10:05:02 PM »
d-a...there is no need for solder, and if I did solder it, it would be with very low temperature solder with 2% silver.  But the tension of the rivets alone will do the job.
I will use the same silver bearing soft solder to join the rod pipes to the rib...that's next.

Taylor

I was just referring to the silver solder found on the Hawkens to fill the opening left by the hollow under rib. Most I've seen put it in prior to riveting the under rib to the barrel.

d-a

WV_Mountaineer

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2014, 10:37:22 PM »
Very good tutorial and the pictures are very helpful.  Would love to see a picture of the staking tool you made, as well.  Thanks,

Offline David Rase

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2014, 10:49:47 PM »
I would think that the same technique could be used for barrel key or pin staples.  Turn a groove near both ends of a short rod, bend the ends over, place the ends in the holes drilled in the barrel and stake.  I bet that would be much more solid then the staples offered for sale commercially with just one little toe.
David

Offline louieparker

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2014, 11:42:43 PM »
d-a mentioned the solder filled end of the rib. I have seen a treatment on I think two Hawken ribs that I thought was a nice touch.  The rib at the front end appeared to be solid. No inside groove. the rib was stopped about 1/16 inch from the muzzle , the end was rounded and the side groove was continued around the curve and down the other side.  I had the barrel off but can't remember what it looked like on the back end. But it appeared to be solid. I have give this effect to two ribs by just welding up the end of store bought rib. 

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2014, 11:46:53 PM »
When those barrel loops first became available, I thought I'd better make one to see how strong they were.  So I did as David said, and bent a piece of mild steel rod over a flat bar and filed feet into the ends.  I drilled two matching holes into a 1" square bar of steel, and staked the loop down.  Then I slipped a BIG screw driver into the loop and tried to pry it back out.  I could not.  The loop tore before the feet came loose.  The commercial offerings are very very delicate by comparison I've used dozens of them without failure.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2014, 11:53:34 PM »
Louis, now I see what we are referring to...the end of the hollow rib on all half stock rifles of this period are filled with lead or some alloy.
I shall do the same with the muzzle end on this one, but the other end I'm leaving open to let it breathe.  On my personal rifle, I closed both ends, but on that one, I had soft soldered the rib to the barrel, so there were no openings for moisture to creep in under the rib.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline Habu

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2014, 01:07:33 AM »
I would think that the same technique could be used for barrel key or pin staples.  Turn a groove near both ends of a short rod, bend the ends over, place the ends in the holes drilled in the barrel and stake.  I bet that would be much more solid then the staples offered for sale commercially with just one little toe.
David
That's how I was taught to do it.  I've never had one come out, and the times I've tried to remove them, it was always easier to cut them off and draw-file the stubs than to try to pull them out. 

I do like Taylor's use of a modified nailset--going to have to remember that one.  It looks much better than the punch I've used in the past. 

I've always been nervous about striking a hammer face with another hammer face, so I use a punch with a rounded end for riveting jobs like this.  It works (would work better if I practiced more).


Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2014, 08:37:55 AM »
I'll post a picture of both the punch I used to stake the pegs, and the two hammers I used for the riveting.  I didn't strike the hammers together hard enough to create any danger...lots of little hits to move the steel around and fill the counterbored holes.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Habu

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2014, 10:31:54 AM »
Taylor, I had a shop teacher in 7th grade who would slap you on the back of the head if he saw you strike two hammer faces together.  I don't worry about damaging the tools--I worry about Twig sneaking up and smacking me if I did it!

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2014, 07:36:04 PM »
Habu, I know why your teacher 'discouraged' hammer on hammer.  Kids like to crack them together hard to hear the contact.  There is a danger when you do this, that a piece of one hammer or the other will fly away and cause an injury, and that's something a shop teacher cannot have happen.  I taught shop in high school for over ten years, and I know what the wee dears are capable of. 

But this contact is very light - no danger, and no whack on the back of the head.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2014, 08:11:01 PM »





This is a picture of the nail set I made into a staking punch.  I used a 3/32" chain saw file to cut the concave groove - tough but it worked.

And here's a couple of the pair of hammers I used to do the riveting.



The phone is just to give a size comparison.





« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 04:27:25 AM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2014, 09:16:36 PM »
Some of these "wee" dears can knock the horn off an anvil with a rubber mallet.

Bob Roller