Author Topic: Riveting an under-rib  (Read 21516 times)

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2014, 03:38:30 AM »
Taylor..........a nice clean job, like most of your stuff.    Pete Allan used to make some neat cast staples, over the years I used
a lot of them.   I even modified a nail set as you did, you stand much less chance of dimpling the bore with something like this............Don

Offline Habu

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2014, 04:03:10 AM »
Some of these "wee" dears can knock the horn off an anvil with a rubber mallet.

Bob Roller
I never damaged an anvil, but I did borrow one from the shop one evening.  Unfortunately, being a typical air-headed 14 year old kid, I went and forgot it in the school office, accidentally trapping the school board in a meeting room.  Since then I've learned to remember where I leave anvils.

Offline G.Rummell

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2014, 03:59:18 PM »
Taylor,
This tutorial couldn't have come at a better time. It was time to install the rib on the Vincent I'm working on and I just spent the better part of two days trying to decide if I should affix it using solder or screws. Well, last evening I tried your method and I have to say, that was the greatest thing since sliced bread. In a matter of an hour or two I had everything installed and dressed up and it looks superb. That just goes to show, some of us old dogs can still learn new tricks. Thank you.

Gary
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserves neither liberty or safety."

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2014, 08:37:05 PM »
You bet Gary.  One thing I could comment on that I hope will help others who would like to use this system, is the size of the pegs themselves.  That size must depend entirely on how wide the concave rod channel is in the rib.  The narrower it is, the less in diameter the pegs should be.  You must keep the countersink on the holes for the pegs, within the confines of the ridges on the groove.  It would be difficult to get a rivet to fill the countersink if it rides too far up that groove.  And of course, the countersink is going to want to cut metal away up on the sides of the groove more than down in the valley, so this compounds the issue.  I tried a short cut off piece of scrap first, before I committed to the actual rib and barrel.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline d-a

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2014, 09:34:40 PM »
Taylor

Do you happen to have a picture of your countersunk hole in the under rib?

I might add this is great info and should be a tutorial

d-a

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2014, 09:50:46 PM »
Nope, but I'll make one and post it here.



I used a 1/4" counter sink, though that likely doesn't matter as long as it has no more than an 82 degree taper...a little shallower might work better.  This is my practice piece, so it hasn't been polished.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 11:56:49 PM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

blaksmth

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2014, 10:03:06 PM »
Taylor,

 thank you for showing how you made your tool for swaging the pins, I allways held my breath when tapping the holes in the under rib myself I can see where your solution will reduce the( PUCKER FACTOR) a lot on installation a lot.

 I am going to use your solution on the rifle I am working on right now  ;) ;)

Offline Habu

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2014, 10:03:19 PM »
Thanks for the pics of the staking punch--I've got one very much like it now.  I even remembered to put it in the drawer with the other tools I use for installing barrel tenons. 

At the same time, I modified another (with a flat cut away rather than concave) to use to tighten rifle sights in their dovetails.  I never cared for the marks left by a centerpunch. 

dbrown

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2014, 04:16:26 PM »
Wow, thanks for sharing your knowledge Taylor. I humbly ask what glue do you use for temporary situation.

Dave

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2014, 09:58:44 PM »
Cyanoacrylate thick.  I just applied it here and there sparingly, 'cause it holds very well.  A sharp wrap with a block of wood and a hammer will shear the glue (sometimes)  but in my case, I had to apply heat with a propane torch to get the glue to release.

I used the glue lots in the past when drilling and tapping those solid ribs to Hawken barrels.  I use only hollow ribs now.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Online sdilts

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2014, 05:07:17 AM »
Taylor

How about showing how you attach the thimbles to the hollow rib.

Offline whitebear

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2014, 08:49:10 AM »
I use only hollow ribs now.

Why do you use only hollow ribs now?
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2014, 08:58:36 AM »
I use only hollow ribs now.

Why do you use only hollow ribs now?

Lighter, HC. Many reasons.

Dan
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Offline whitebear

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2014, 09:08:16 AM »
In the beginning God...
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2014, 06:31:26 PM »
Thanks Dan.  Yes to both.  The hollow steel rib adds only a fraction of the weight to the barrel that a solid one does.  And I find them easier in a lot of ways to attach to the barrel.

I'll do a little 'tutorial' on how I go about joining the thimble to the rib.  Just give me a few hours this afternoon.  I might need a nap after having got up at 3:45 am to watch the gold medal Olympic hockey game - worth it though!!
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2014, 07:39:10 AM »
Moderators:  if you think this little 'tutorial' might be helpful, pls move it or add it to that forum.

The ramrod pipes or thimbles are attached to the rib prior to the rib being joined to the barrel.  the strongest joint is or course, silver solder, but soft solder works fine, and is easier to clean up.  If you are joining the rib to the barrel with soft solder, it's probably a good idea to join the pipes to the rib with silver bearing or higher temp solder.

This series of notes and photos is on a waste piece of barrel and rib; the rib is already riveted to the barrel, so I used an unsupported end of the rib for this project.
The first task is to make the pipe itself.  I drilled a piece of 1/2" round bar stock in the lathe ending with a 7/16" drill bit, so the walls of the pipe are only .0325" or a little less.  A little thicker is fine, though original pipes are usually quite thin.  Here's the pipe laying on top of the rib:


You could go ahead and solder this tube to the hollow of the rib, and it would work, but it wouldn't be 'nice'.  What I look for on half stocked rifles is a ramrod that has no gap between the wood and the rib.  To create that effect, and what appears to be the pipe 'growing' right out of the rib, you file a flat on the pipe to correspond with a flat that you file in the rib.  I do the rib first, cutting through the concave trough until I get a flat clean rectangle, as in the photo.  then I file a flat on the pipe to match.  When they are laid together, the trough in the rib will be continuous with the hollow of the pipe.




This is an image of the pipe just laying on top of the rib so both flats show well.  Next tin both the flats.  I used silver bearing electrical solder here and ordinary solder flux.  I rub the nose of a wad of four ought steel wool in the flux, and when the solder sticks to the steel, I rub it with the steel wool and flux, and it cleans off everything extra and leaves a completely covered and uniform flat, well tinned, as in this image.





Now wire the pipe to the rib so it's straight in line with the trough, and apply the torch gently to both until the solder flows.  Fill the joint along both sides of the pipe and the rib - the extra gets cleaned up soon.  The following image shows the pipe wired down, and a length of solder laying on the trough, ready for the heat.


I'll finish this up in the morning...good night.


Here's the pipe soldered to the rib, before clean-up.



Clean-up is done with a scraper, chisel, or in this case a flat die sinker's chisel.  The excess solder is easily scraped away down to the steel.  Be careful not to create a chatter in the steel...that is tedious to polish out.  After scraping, I rubbed it down with 80 grit, then 180 grit, abrasive cloth.  You can take the polishing as far as you want.  Use cold blue on a q-tip to ensure you have removed all of the solder, as you won't be able to brown or blue through solder.





And finally, a look into the pipe.  This whole process, including making the pipe in the lathe took less than a half hour, and the time spent is well worth the outcome.  How deeply one has to cut into the rib to make the rectangular flat depends upon how thick your pipe is.  The idea is to make the trough of the rib continuous with the tube.  I figured out how this was done when one day, I had an English shotgun in the shop whose first pipe had come away on only one side.  It was easy to see that the tube had been filed through, and that it was then soldered to a rectangular cut -out in the rib.


« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 12:05:29 AM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline whitebear

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2014, 10:41:05 AM »
Taylor you answer questions that I never would have thought to ask.  Thanks.
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2014, 03:42:22 AM »
Here's a couple of examples of half stocked rifles with hollow ribs and steel pipes attached in this manner.

First is my own Hawken rifle..

...and this is the one on the bench presently.


« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 12:07:19 AM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2014, 04:51:50 AM »
Thanks Taylor for the tips. The cold blue to show any leftover solder is sure a good idea as when you dress the solder off the bright steel and solder just look too much alike.

Offline Clark B

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2014, 07:18:00 AM »
Excellent write up and great pictures as usual. I hope this gets in the tutorials
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JB2

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2014, 04:43:32 PM »
Thanks for all the tips and the step-by-step.  I just hope you're not giving away all your secrets.  Probably doesn't really matter, because I know I'll never be giving you any competition in the gun-building arena. ;)  It really is all about the execution, isn't it?

Offline whitebear

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2014, 12:07:17 AM »
Moderators if you haven't already please make this a tutorial.
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Riveting an under-rib
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2014, 07:33:12 PM »
I'm bringing this thread to the top again, in hopes that it is the simplest way to answer a new thread on virtually the same subject.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.