Author Topic: killdeer rifle (Read 26800 times)

elk killer · « **on:** February 24, 2014, 03:34:04 PM »

anyone know where to see good clear pictures of this rifle?
the rifle used in last of mohicans...
the one Wayne Watson built
google was no help..

rich pierce · « **Reply #1 on:** February 24, 2014, 04:56:27 PM »

Not sure I've ever seen a good set of photos of this rifle. Many or most of the builders here trend toward more accurate representations of period pieces, so this might not be the best forum for that particular rifle. On the other hand, no harm asking and you never know what might pop up.

elk killer · « **Reply #2 on:** February 24, 2014, 05:42:54 PM »

i didnt want to build it
just was curious

Curtis · « **Reply #3 on:** February 24, 2014, 05:53:49 PM »

http://www.mohicanpress.com/mo10015.html
Scroll to the bottom.

jamesthomas · « **Reply #4 on:** February 24, 2014, 06:56:25 PM »

Dave Keck at Knob Mountain Muzzleloaders has the Killdeer profile if you want to make one of your own.

Don Getz · « **Reply #5 on:** February 24, 2014, 07:22:16 PM »

We have been friends of Wayne Watson for many years and have supplied him with custom barrels whenever he got into a
special gun. By his won admission, the "Kildeer" was not really a very good gun. They should have told to make a good
lehigh gun, then let him run with it. Michael Mann was the director for the movie and he wanted certain things pertaining to
the gun. He wanted a curly maple stock with all of the stripe angled forward. In order to do this, Wayne went over to Fred
Miller and used up one plank to make one gun by angling the stock across the plank. Wayne also went down to North
Carolina, where the movie was being shot, and had to stain the gun to meet the ideas of Michael Mann. I guess that's what
you have to do to make a movie gun...........Don

Dphariss · « **Reply #6 on:** February 24, 2014, 09:26:01 PM »

Apparently that's what you have to do when building a rifle for a clueless control freak.
Maybe Mann should have read the book

Dan

Topknot · « **Reply #7 on:** February 24, 2014, 10:15:42 PM »

Amen to what you said Dan!

topkmot

t.caster · « **Reply #8 on:** February 24, 2014, 11:29:53 PM »

Looked like they had a "safe" prop rifle made of rubber for the running scenes.

The long slim, smallish caliber, silver mounted "RIFLE" didn't appear to be correct for F&E period. But I chuckled & wrote it off to Hollyweird

cheyenne · « **Reply #9 on:** April 22, 2014, 02:13:37 AM »

cheyenne · « **Reply #10 on:** April 22, 2014, 02:14:32 AM »

cheyenne · « **Reply #11 on:** April 22, 2014, 02:16:29 AM »

While not the actual rifle used in the movie, these pictures are of a killdeer made by Wayne Watson to match the movie gun. At least that is the story.

cheyenne · « **Reply #12 on:** April 22, 2014, 02:17:52 AM »

The movie rifle used a small Siler, and I don't think it had set triggers.

kaintuck · « **Reply #13 on:** April 22, 2014, 03:36:20 AM »

What style is this rifle??
Seems.......well......?

cheyenne · « **Reply #14 on:** April 22, 2014, 03:40:43 AM »

Quote from: Don Getz on February 24, 2014, 07:22:16 PM

We have been friends of Wayne Watson for many years and have supplied him with custom barrels whenever he got into a
special gun. By his own admission, the "Kildeer" was not really a very good gun. They should have told to make a good
lehigh gun, then let him run with it. Michael Mann was the director for the movie and he wanted certain things pertaining to
the gun.

Not a 'school'.....Lehigh is close, it is an iconic rifle and if it's use in the movie can inspire new shooters to try, then it's a great rifle!

Kermit · « **Reply #15 on:** April 22, 2014, 04:19:08 AM »

Movies are entertainment for the great unwashed, by the elite unwashed. Don't expect documented accuracy. Remember, the film was based on--TA DA--a work of fiction.

Many of us started in this hobby with a nudge from fiction.

mattdog · « **Reply #16 on:** April 22, 2014, 05:16:55 AM »

The rifle shown has no connection with reaity. Hollywood does not have to conform with our reality. A long rifle with a flintlock is good enough. Don't ask for anything more.

A.Merrill · « **Reply #17 on:** April 22, 2014, 05:45:05 AM »

Kermit, how right you are.

Hawken62_flint · « **Reply #18 on:** April 22, 2014, 02:52:46 PM »

Had in mind to build a "Killdeer Rifle", as I like the long look---understanding that it might not be PC or HC, but a nice Lehigh with the long barrel has appeal to me. So in 2011, I called Wayne Watson to get his best recollection on the Killdeer rifle and the following notes were from that converstation:

Barrel was swamped .50 caliber built by Getz (1 1/16 at breech, 13/16 at mid, and 7/8 at muzzle) 50 inches long
Lock—Small Siler (made gun look even longer) (Mann wanted to make the gun look as long as possible)
Triggers—Davis
Allentown School (Rupp), with all iron furniture (Rupp buttplate, Isaac Haines trigger guard)
Stock stained light ( Brian Lemaster and Wayne worked together on the stain on this rifle and
some of the other rifles from "Last of the Mohicans") Wood had curl (wide spaced—light) similar to a John Beck.

So. you can see that it was a hodgepodge of parts, but I still like the long look and had Ed Rayl build me a barrel in the same diemensions and Ihave a stock blank to build a left-handed rifle using an early Cochran left-handed flint lock. Should be fun to do and to shoot.
Never found any clear pictures of the original rifle.

Dphariss · « **Reply #19 on:** April 22, 2014, 04:41:04 PM »

Caution off ML topic.
Not everything Hollywood is silly about firearms. For "Quigley Downunder" Megan Rose and Tom Selleck came to the shop and ASKED. We shot with Tom out to 400 yards or so and gave them instructions on the use of the rifles. Tom is a gun owner and a good shot in his own right but did need to "direction" on snatching at the set triggers but only once. They wanted to know what bullets the English might have that would work in a Sharps. I told them the 450 #2 Musket used the same nominal bore size as Sharps 45s did and this made it into the movie as did a couple of other recommendations. So other than some "impossible shots" the firearm and its usage were good.
They used the guns as we made them. We did however, lengthen the pull of the rifles so they would not look too small in closeups of Tom shooting them. He is a pretty big guy. But this was OUR idea not theirs. Other than doing a little more aging over what I had done the three rifles were used as we shipped them. We did fit an aluminum barrel for one of the guns due to a minor arm injury Tom suffered but this was changed out after the movie was over. The gun they threw in the dirt in one of the last scenes was not rubber and it makes me cringe when I see it.
Apparently there is some reason why even horse wranglers get their name in the credits but folks from Montana don't even if they make the gun that was a bigger part of the movie than in "Mohicans", add lines to the script.... When Megan Rose asked if there was anything they could do for me I asked about getting into the credits but got an explanation of why not that I did not quite understand. So I got a signed poster and a thank you letter....
But "Thats Hollywood".
As others have previously stated expecting absolute historical accuracy is not realistic in entertainment. Radio requires things to be stated that are not needed in a movie and visuals are often "enhanced" in movies/TV to make sure the point is made.
Of the "Leather Stocking Tales" I was able to read, only the first three could not get around the others, I decided years ago that Natty Bumppo was the first American super hero.... Something of a "Captain America" in buckskins.
Dan

54ball · « **Reply #20 on:** April 22, 2014, 10:41:14 PM »

I look at it like this, guns are actors too. Lewis can play Bumpo or Lincoln but he is not actually Bumpo or Lincoln.
In hollywood history the best "gun actor" is the Infantry model 1873 Trapdoor. It can play roles from muskets to longfifles and in longrifle trim you really have to look close to see it's a 1873 prop.

Mohican lore says, I think it was Bivens, who built a true F&I era rifle for Hawkeye. Mann did not like it as the Hawkeye rifle and had Killdeer built. The F&I rifle was used in some background scenes and some claim that Mann kept it as his personal rifle.

Pete G. · « **Reply #21 on:** April 23, 2014, 02:10:24 AM »

I can't remember the title right offhand, but I distinctly remember seeing an 1873 Springfield "flintlock" in a movie, and there was an episode of "Have Gun Will Travel" where Paladin armed Mexican farmers with "Outdated muskets, circa 1820", that were really our old friend the trapdoor.

Kermit · « **Reply #22 on:** April 23, 2014, 02:58:49 AM »

Quote from: 54ball on April 22, 2014, 10:41:14 PM

...but he is not actually Bumpo...

But then, NOBODY ever was.

Dphariss · « **Reply #23 on:** April 23, 2014, 03:46:05 AM »

Quote from: Pete G. on April 23, 2014, 02:10:24 AM

I can't remember the title right offhand, but I distinctly remember seeing an 1873 Springfield "flintlock" in a movie, and there was an episode of "Have Gun Will Travel" where Paladin armed Mexican farmers with "Outdated muskets, circa 1820", that were really our old friend the trapdoor.

They make a REALLY ugly FL.
Look in "The Big Sky" with Kirk Douglas adn Dewy Martin to see an ugly FL when they show Dewy Martin shooting from the Keelboat with what is supposed to be the swivel breech he carries in the movie....
Dan

Jim Chambers · « **Reply #24 on:** April 23, 2014, 04:03:23 AM »

Dan,
When I asked about movie credits for the guns Bivins and I did for the movie I was told they would give us credit if we DONATED the rifles. We gladly elected to take the money and skip the credits.

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Author Topic: killdeer rifle (Read 26800 times)

jamesthomas

cheyenne

cheyenne

cheyenne

cheyenne

kaintuck

cheyenne

mattdog

54ball