Author Topic: Johannes Faber Rifle  (Read 10478 times)

Offline Mike Gahagan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
    • Mike Gahagan-Gunmaker
Johannes Faber Rifle
« on: April 18, 2014, 03:36:36 AM »
I have something that I would like to throw at you guys and see what you think about it..I posted some pictures of the Johannes Faber rifle on my Facebook page and a friend that reads old German said that the last name in the signature on the side plate actually reads Huber.I confirmed it with a friend in Austria and he said that it does in fact say Huber..The way they explained it is that the signer was writing both in English and old German.The letter "H" in old German looks like a "F" in English and if you look at the H in Johannes and the first letter in the last name they look almost identical.Also the "A" in the last name has the mark above it,it's called a umlaut,makes it a "U" in old German so it reads Huber instead if Faber..I probably didn't explain it very well but I would get your thoughts on it it.

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2014, 04:58:35 AM »
Not necessary a "u" in Old German. The umlaut can and was used to modify the pronunciation of u, a, and o. All I am saying is that the F in script and a in pronunciation can be taken either way according to who is doing the translating.

dp
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline Mike Gahagan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
    • Mike Gahagan-Gunmaker
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2014, 06:00:45 AM »
Thanks for the reply.I don't know a thing about the German language and that's why I wanted another opinion on it.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 09:03:09 AM by Mike Gahagan »

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2014, 07:12:06 AM »
Mike,
I am NO expert or even a serious student of the German language, except for taking two years of Modern, “High” German in High School over 40 years ago.  Thought I would get that caveat out of the way.  Oh, I WELL remember my German Teacher, Frau Kinsler, almost beating into us the importance of the Umlaut.  GRIN.

In one of the JHAT books, they talk about how difficult it is for modern German reading and speaking people to read 17th  and early 18th Century German text.  I have heard this from others who were real scholars on the subject in other places as well.  It seems it is much more difficult than modern English reading/speaking people have of reading 17th English, though, even to scholars in each language.  So I completely understand that some German Scholars might think or believe the name is actually “Huber” instead of “Faber.”

Perhaps looking at what the different surnames mean may be useful or at least interesting.  “Huber” in German comes from the word “Hide” meaning a plot of farming land, so the name would have its historic roots in that trade/avocation.   The surname “Faber” seems to have been far older and came up with the Roman Empire into France, the Netherlands, Switzerland and Germany.  In Germany it is considered a “Latin” or “Latin Form” that later evolved into Schmidt or Schmitt or Schmitz and means a Blacksmith and was well associated with that trade.  The name Faber was well established in Germany by the middle ages.  (Now, just because someone’s surname is Farmer for example, doesn’t mean or meant they followed that trade, of course.  In the early to late 18th Century, the surname Farmer was hugely part of the gunmaking industry of Birmingham, UK.)  Still the surname Faber is a much more likely name and much longer associated with Blacksmithing and Metal Working in Germany than the surname Huber -IF Faber was the maker and not the owner.  Also found out there was not a Virginia Gunsmith by the name of Faber, so it might have been the Owner instead of the maker?  .

Not only that, but this link speaks to Germanic Fabers who colonized into early Pennsylvania and their name was not a misspelling or mixed Anglo/Deutsch conglomeration.
http://www.houseofnames.com/faber-coat-of-arms

Shumway stated the name “Faber” was an old and established name around Staunton, Va.

Finally, here are a couple of Fabers who are listed on Passenger lists:

Johann Henrich Faber  -  1749   (Ship) Ranier
[list 136 C] Ranier
Captain: Henry Browning
From: Rotterdam
By Way of: ..., England
Arrival: Philadelphia, 16 Sep 1749
http://www.progenealogists.com/palproject/pa/1749ran.htm
 and
Johann Henrich Faber
1751 (Ship) Duke of Bedford
[list 166 C] Duke of Bedford
Captain: Richard Jeffreys
From: Rotterdam
By Way of: Portsmouth
Arrival: Philadelphia, 14 Sep 1751
http://www.progenealogists.com/palproject/pa/1751dobed.htm

Bottom line, while perhaps some things may be seen in the engraved “signature,” isn’t it more important how the Person/Gunsmith who owned or built it considered how their name was or should have been spelled?

Gus
[/list][/list]
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 07:31:26 AM by Artificer »

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2014, 07:22:00 AM »
OOOPs,  Forgot to mention Johannes and Johann often meant the same name as well as Henrich (on the ships rosters)  and Heinrich.  Good thing they were on two different ships with the same name, eh?  Grin.
Gus

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2014, 01:14:48 PM »
Can you load the pictures that are on your Facebook page here?

Eighteenth-century German script has different characters for most letters--and the lower-case "h" does look like a cursive "f" from eighteenth-century or modern English. It would be odd for somebody to mix characters from different writing systems.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Mike Gahagan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
    • Mike Gahagan-Gunmaker
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2014, 04:15:02 PM »
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/t1.0-9/10151161_433918406751904_6580024457594856609_n.jpg

Here is the link to the photo.
I just wanted to say that I do not think that it is what I am being told and I am not trying to rewrite history here,I just thought that I would throw it up for discussion since it was brought to my attention and see what others that know something about the old German language think about it.I sure don`t know anything about it.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 05:34:37 PM by Mike Gahagan »

Offline Shreckmeister

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3754
  • GGGG Grandpa Schrecengost Gunsmith/Miller
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2014, 05:37:41 PM »
Can anyone tell me what this number is in Old German

« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 03:33:18 PM by rich pierce »
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2014, 06:01:40 PM »
That looks like Huber to me--and it certainly does mix German script with other characters! The "h" in the first name is German script; the "e" is definitely not. The "h" in the first name and the "h" in the last name (even though one would expect a capital "h" there) look identical to me. I cannot see the first vowel in the last name clearly enough to make out whether it is an "a" or a "u," but it looks to me like a "u."
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2014, 02:37:58 AM »
Usually Moravian documents handwritten in script still use "Latinate" font for proper names--so in the document below you can see such words as "Fetter Lane" in the last line or "Lindheim" in the fourth line. But sometimes they will spell proper names in script--and in the document below both the word "Herrnhaag" (3rd to last word in first line) and "Holland" and "England" (4th and 2nd to last words in third line) are written in script.

You can see that the first letter of each of these words, Herrnhagg and Holland, written in script, closely resembles the first letter of the surname on the rifle.









« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 03:34:15 PM by rich pierce »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Mike Gahagan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
    • Mike Gahagan-Gunmaker
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2014, 05:24:55 AM »
Thanks for all of your research SP.I looked at some old German script today online and the H did look almost identical to the F in Faber.I don't know..Maybe someone smarter than me will look someday to see if  a Haber or Huber might have been in that area at that time.It would be interesting to know.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4033
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2014, 06:10:30 PM »
Very interesting.  In comparison to the posted document, that sure does appear to be an 'h.'

I don't think there could ever be a way to pin down who the owner may have been, however, unless we consider that it may have been the maker's name (unlikely, but possible) and somebody manages to dig up some documentation of a Johannes Huber being referenced as a smith in some way, somewhere.

Regarding locality, it could have been made anywhere.  The only reason it has been considered 'southern' is because it doesn't look like what an early PA rifle was assumed to look like, ca. 1970s thought processes, and so George stuck it in with the southern rifles.  I suppose it really could have been made anywhere from New England down to the Carolinas.  I haven't followed this one closely but I believe there's a smoothbore privately held with the same name on it, and also this one frequently is discussed in comparison to the 'feather' rifle.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 06:11:18 PM by Eric Kettenburg »
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Mike Gahagan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
    • Mike Gahagan-Gunmaker
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2014, 07:46:07 PM »
Eric,I have always thought that the name was most likely the owner instead of the builder but it is one of those areas where there is more speculation of who built it and the origin than proof I guess...Ian Pratt was telling me of the other gun that you mentioned,or I presume that it is the same one,I would really like to see it.Is there any pictures out there anywhere?

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4033
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2014, 08:53:13 PM »
I don't believe there are any pictures, although there may be some that were privately taken and circulated.  As I noted, I haven't tried to follow it closely as my area of personal and obsessive interest is fairly specific.  When you just see one of these, with the name where it is, the instinctual thought is that it's merely an owner.  When you see or hear of another, that creates more possibilities (to my way of thinking, anyway...) and so one might begin to consider it as a *possible* maker's name.  I think I was told that the owner of the 'other one' was out in western PA, or W VA, somewhere out in that area of the country, but it was a few years ago that this was discussed and I don't really remember that much about it.  Now I wish I did!
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Mike Gahagan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
    • Mike Gahagan-Gunmaker
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2014, 09:07:12 PM »
Thanks Eric.

Offline Ian Pratt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 548
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2014, 04:00:21 AM »
 Can't find my notes on it right now so this is all from memory, but the smoothbore gun appeared obviously to have been made by the same hand. Architecturally/ profile wise, very similar, but no cheekpiece. It had the same or very similar tang carving and wrist escutcheon, and I think had the same carving at the comb which trails back down the wrist. I think the lock was of the same type. The side plate was identical, but was engraved (in the same style of script) with a different name. The first name was "Johan" - not Johannes -  and I don't recall the second name but it was definitely not Faber / Huber. If I find my notes I'll post more unless somebody else can provide more info.     

Offline Ian Pratt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 548
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2014, 04:02:31 AM »
And thank you Mike for bringing this up, most interesting! 

Offline Mike Gahagan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
    • Mike Gahagan-Gunmaker
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2014, 04:29:05 AM »
My pleasure Ian and thank you and everyone for their input.It will be real interesting researching this further.  :)

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4033
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2014, 06:12:13 AM »
Maybe that's what I heard - it's been a while, I do remember there was an alleged association and something about a name but that's about it.  Well, if the name was different, then we're all back to square one without a consistent maker's name or mark.  Oh well.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline bp

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Johannes Faber Rifle
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2014, 04:45:45 AM »
The similar smooth bore did have a different name on the side plate (other similarities to Faber/Huber rifle as Ian Pratt described).  It was published in Muzzleblasts  in the mid 1980s or early 90s but can't I can't remember the issue -probably have the issue boxed up in the closet somewhere.