Author Topic: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?  (Read 9110 times)

Overmountain Man

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Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« on: June 22, 2014, 06:37:43 PM »
I am building a Ferguson Rifle.  What was the traditional finish for British Long arms in the Revolutionary War?  I am stocking with European Walnut to match as much as possible the traditional wood.  What would be the technique/steps required to finish the wood?  Scraping, burnishing, stain, etc.? I have ask some people who conjectured that they were finished in Linseed Oil with out any stain.

Thanks,
Overmountain Man

Joe S

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2014, 04:36:30 AM »
Scrapping and burnishing for sure.  I don’t know about stain.  Perhaps someone that has handled a lot of originals could answer this question.

Most definitely not linseed oil.  This subject comes up fairly regularly on this site, so if you search a little bit, you will find many, many conversations. 

Linseed oil, by itself, is not now, nor has it ever been a good gun finish.  It is neither waterproof nor durable, and it takes forever to dry.  I’ll give you the 10 cent tour.

First of all, linseed oil doesn’t dry in the sense that a water based or alcohol based solution dries.  With water and alcohol, the solvent evaporates, leaving behind whatever was dissolved or suspended in it.  Linseed oil doesn’t do that – it polymerizes.  That means that the individual molecules that comprise the oil react with oxygen in the atmosphere and become linked to each other, or crosslinked as we say.  When this process is complete, what you have is essentially a single giant molecule. 

You can speed up the polymerization in several ways.  You can heat the oil, which partially polymerizes it, you can add a chemical catalyst called a drier that speeds the polymerization, or both.  Modern driers are typically cobalt and manganese, historically lead was used.   Once you’ve heated the oil and added the catalyst, you now have what’s known as a drying oil, or “boiled” linseed oil.  Boiled linseed oil polymerizes much faster than pure linseed oil, but it still isn’t a very good finish.  For weather resistance you need to add a resin.

If you add a resin to a drying oil, you now have a varnish.  The properties of varnish are highly dependent on the resins one chooses to use, but they can be very weather and damage resistant, and have properties that make them much better gun finishes that most of the modern finishes used today.   

The gun builders in the late 1700’s had many types of resins and hence varnishes available, and I doubt that anyone knows exactly which varnish was used on any particular gun.  However, if you search for brown varnish on this site, you will find recipes for making a period correct varnish that is either very similar to or identical to the finish that would have been used on the gun you are building.

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2014, 04:52:16 AM »
Every British reference I have ever heard about called for boiled linseed oil as the finish for military arms. BLO might not be the best of all finishes, but when strict military discipline was enforced it was quite sufficient for the job, especially when the sodliers spent their non-drilling hours under the supervision of a Seargeant or junior officer taking diligent care of their equipment. Unlike American martial arms (that were also finished exclusively with BLO until Tung Oil became the prefered finish), British arms didn't spend much time collecting dust in some arsenal. They went on active campaign across the globe and had fairly short service lives.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2014, 05:19:44 AM »
Given that any that were used in Britain have likely had more finish added as a matter of course how would one know?
Also when reading about stock finishes in old writings remember that anything that dried to a shine was considered a varnish. So even a very soft oil varnish was a varnish. Very hard resin varnishes such as sometimes used on stringed instruments were varnish. Then we have alcohol based spirit varnishes.
The only way to find out is to examine old guns or read old books on the subject or both. Assuming one can decipher some of the terms used and figure out what they used for oil and varnish then hope that its not intentionally misleading.
This was Greeners method of staining/finishing maple from "The Gun" by W. Greener 1835


Note that he uses oil, surely boiled linseed oil, several coats then says to varnish or whatever. I have no idea what the military would use but doubt it would be varnish due the fact that it has poor wear characteristics. Unless varnish over oil as stated here.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2014, 05:24:54 AM »
Every British reference I have ever heard about called for boiled linseed oil as the finish for military arms. BLO might not be the best of all finishes, but when strict military discipline was enforced it was quite sufficient for the job, especially when the sodliers spent their non-drilling hours under the supervision of a Seargeant or junior officer taking diligent care of their equipment. Unlike American martial arms (that were also finished exclusively with BLO until Tung Oil became the prefered finish), British arms didn't spend much time collecting dust in some arsenal. They went on active campaign across the globe and had fairly short service lives.

Some 20th c US military arms were finished with raw linseed oil. It does not develop as much shine as boiled oil does.
This lack of shine would not have been a factor in the 18th c, however.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2014, 05:32:55 AM »
Every British reference I have ever heard about called for boiled linseed oil as the finish for military arms. BLO might not be the best of all finishes, but when strict military discipline was enforced it was quite sufficient for the job, especially when the sodliers spent their non-drilling hours under the supervision of a Seargeant or junior officer taking diligent care of their equipment. Unlike American martial arms (that were also finished exclusively with BLO until Tung Oil became the prefered finish), British arms didn't spend much time collecting dust in some arsenal. They went on active campaign across the globe and had fairly short service lives.

Some 20th c US military arms were finished with raw linseed oil. It does not develop as much shine as boiled oil does.
This lack of shine would not have been a factor in the 18th c, however.
Dan

You are right. I stand corrected. Should have stated that somewhere near the 20th Century Tung oil was prefered, but was hard to get at times here in the US.
Psalms 144

Overmountain Man

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2014, 03:36:01 AM »
I have pictures of Patrick Fergerson's personal Ferguson rifle, and an original British 1776 rifle.  I had a friend from England who convinced the museum curator at the Tower of London to take pictures of the rifles.  If someone can tell me how to insert pictures into this post I can show them.

Thanks,
Overmountain Man




Offline KLMoors

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2014, 01:57:38 PM »
Here's a tutorial on how to post pics:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10.0


lindseyfr

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2014, 09:12:43 PM »
I just finished my TRS Ferguson kit last October and I used an "English Red" stain on the stock (Crushed Alkanet root in warm linseed oil allowed to steep for a month and them the root material strained out) and I finished the wood with real shellac and linseed oil. I got the tip about shellac from a local historian that specializes in British military firearms and it went on well and looks really great.

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/FergieDone2001.jpg

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2014, 09:23:19 PM »
I just finished my TRS Ferguson kit last October and I used an "English Red" stain on the stock (Crushed Alkanet root in warm linseed oil allowed to steep for a month and them the root material strained out) and I finished the wood with real shellac and linseed oil. I got the tip about shellac from a local historian that specializes in British military firearms and it went on well and looks really great.

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/FergieDone2001.jpg

I don't doubt you, but I would like to see the primary research on the shellac part. I like shellac, I wish it were more durable.
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Offline Nate McKenzie

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2014, 01:03:20 AM »
Lindseyfr- I love the the little pink Daddy's Princess in the other photos. Mine is all grown up.

4ster

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2014, 06:36:40 PM »
I have pictures of Patrick Fergerson's personal Ferguson rifle, and an original British 1776 rifle.  I had a friend from England who convinced the museum curator at the Tower of London to take pictures of the rifles.  If someone can tell me how to insert pictures into this post I can show them.

Thanks,
Overmountain Man


I'd like to see those pictures. 

I *think* Lindseyfr and I met at the Smithsonion, examining their Ferguson.  If so, good to see you here (and beautiful looking Ferguson BTW!)  The Smithsonion Fergi was probably a gift from Ferguson to his second in command Abraham DePeyster, sometime before Ferguson was killed on Kings Mountain.

lindseyfr

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2014, 09:06:49 PM »
Hi Steve -
Yes, It's me - Forrest - I did meet you at the Smithsonian to examine their Ferguson.  Now I am enjoying the one I finally finished. Here are some more Pictures:
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/Ferguson007.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/Ferguson006.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/022.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/013.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/013-1.jpg

How are you doing with yours?
Semper Fi


Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2014, 04:41:44 AM »
I just finished my TRS Ferguson kit last October and I used an "English Red" stain on the stock (Crushed Alkanet root in warm linseed oil allowed to steep for a month and them the root material strained out) and I finished the wood with real shellac and linseed oil. I got the tip about shellac from a local historian that specializes in British military firearms and it went on well and looks really great.

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/FergieDone2001.jpg

I don't doubt you, but I would like to see the primary research on the shellac part. I like shellac, I wish it were more durable.

Shellac, as in the alcohol solution, does not show up in Europe until the mid-1600's.  In India it was at that point never used as a solution coating.  Applied in sticks on lathe turned goods. 
Once the lac "resin" was imported into Europe it was the Europeans who worked it up into an alcohol based "varnish".

Shellac was used as a sealer on some gunstocks.  Not as a final finish.  As a sealer under an oil-based finish they complimented each other.  A dry shellac film will not tolerate contact with liquid water.  It swells and gets cloudy.  An oil based finish is fairly permeable (porous) when it comes to humidity in the air.  But a boiled oil or boiled oil based varnish will repel liquid water, such as rain.

The wood stock will "breathe" with changes in humidity and atmospheric pressure changes.  The oil finish will allow moisture, from the air, to migrate back and forth through the oil film.  The base coat(s) of shellac (in the wood, not on the wood) will regulate how much moisture passes through it in a given period of time.  As the amount of moisture passing through the shellac increases it swells and either slows the transmission or stops it completely.  The shellac film acts as a moisture transmission rate regulator.

Mad Monk

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2014, 06:35:56 AM »
Every British reference I have ever heard about called for boiled linseed oil as the finish for military arms. BLO might not be the best of all finishes, but when strict military discipline was enforced it was quite sufficient for the job, especially when the sodliers spent their non-drilling hours under the supervision of a Seargeant or junior officer taking diligent care of their equipment. Unlike American martial arms (that were also finished exclusively with BLO until Tung Oil became the prefered finish), British arms didn't spend much time collecting dust in some arsenal. They went on active campaign across the globe and had fairly short service lives.

Some 20th c US military arms were finished with raw linseed oil. It does not develop as much shine as boiled oil does.
This lack of shine would not have been a factor in the 18th c, however.
Dan

You are right. I stand corrected. Should have stated that somewhere near the 20th Century Tung oil was prefered, but was hard to get at times here in the US.
Hi Clark B
I have a 42 build date Springfield Armory that will weep linseed oil into a rag in the stock cavity to this day. Leave it in there for a few months and it come out yellow and smelling like linseed oil. I suspect that in 100 years the surface of the stock will still look just like it does now. An advantage over many modern finishes.

And again for anyone that might have missed similar posts in the past....
When boiled if add driers and some resin, rosin was common apparently,  added Linseed is a good stock finish especially if its IN the wood rather than just on it as was the case with some of the varnishes used on MLs in America. These heavy bodied varnishes would not penetrate much if at all on maple especially. Thus they would wear off and leave bare wood. This brown varnish will also turn black if a lot of coal was burned for heating or industry in the area where it "lived". But being heavy they did not soak in, they formed a thicker film and would cover scraper makes and other "imperfections" if not too gross, making a smooth surface.
This rifle is finished with the typical low cost brown varnish. It was in the west with limited coal usage and its still a reddish brown. The low cost varnish they could make in shop was actually superior on a firearm than high cost finishes using rarer and harder to combine resins used on Violins for example where the hardness could help with the tonal qualities.



The finish on this rifle, other than where worn or seriously bashed, is in very good condition and shows no cracking/checking, flaking or other attributes of hard varnishes when used on firearms. These soft varnishes were still being used on rifles like Sharps, Ballard, Winchester etc in the late 19th c but they were lighter colored and sometimes were a pale color somewhat like stand oil. This was the result of the industrial revolution taking over the paint and varnish industry and the processes were changed so that by today "boiled" oil is not really boiled at all. Like the brown varnish on the Hawken these varnishes were usually pretty darned durable though being by this time a store bought finish some of it was less durable that other batches and its not uncommon to see a Sharps from 1870-71, for example, with no finish at all remaining probably because the finish was too "waterproof" and thus brittle and failed and fell off. They were also a thinner coating than that found on many of the ML arms using a shop made varnish.
An  oil varnish need not be very hard to be water resistant. Resistant, BTW, is all one can hope for is a stock finish unless the wood is permeated completely with epoxy, yeah this has been done in the modern world using vacuum tanks. Linseed oil is actually a pretty good base for a long term durable stock finish and its TRADITIONAL. But many people have come to different conclusions through reading "modern" gunsmithing books (where some really hilarious processes can be found such as coating a stock that won't dry with chassis grease) or using oil that was not properly prepared for the usage.
If I have erred in my appraisal here Monk and lash me with a wet noodle, or his keyboard since noodles are too short given the distances involved.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2014, 06:40:53 AM »
Hi Steve -
Yes, It's me - Forrest - I did meet you at the Smithsonian to examine their Ferguson.  Now I am enjoying the one I finally finished. Here are some more Pictures:
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/Ferguson007.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/Ferguson006.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/022.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/013.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/013-1.jpg

How are you doing with yours?
Semper Fi



I like the color very much.

Now the devilish question. Have you tried putting a dab of the Alkanet root oil on a piece of glass or plexiglass and putting it out in the sun and weather for a week more?  Just curious to see the result and too lazy to mess with the Alkanet root myself.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

4ster

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2014, 05:11:18 PM »
Hi Steve -
Yes, It's me - Forrest - I did meet you at the Smithsonian to examine their Ferguson.  Now I am enjoying the one I finally finished.

How are you doing with yours?
Semper Fi

Well, I enjoy shooting it but I am still experimenting to try to improve accuracy.  Its probably a problem with the nut behind the trigger. 

That was a highlight of my Washington DC visit.  It was amazing to actually hold an original, and to share the experience with another builder.

lindseyfr

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2014, 07:20:36 PM »
Hi Steve -
Yes, It's me - Forrest - I did meet you at the Smithsonian to examine their Ferguson.  Now I am enjoying the one I finally finished. Here are some more Pictures:
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/Ferguson007.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/Ferguson006.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/022.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/013.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp150/aliaelaine/013-1.jpg

How are you doing with yours?
Semper Fi



I like the color very much.

Now the devilish question. Have you tried putting a dab of the Alkanet root oil on a piece of glass or plexiglass and putting it out in the sun and weather for a week more?  Just curious to see the result and too lazy to mess with the Alkanet root myself.

Dan

Hi Dan-
I'll dig my bottle out and give it a try.
I'll give you the results in a couple of weeks.

What outfit were you with in Vietnam?

Semper Fi,
Forrest

lindseyfr

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2014, 07:26:58 PM »
Hi Steve -
Yes, It's me - Forrest - I did meet you at the Smithsonian to examine their Ferguson.  Now I am enjoying the one I finally finished.

How are you doing with yours?
Semper Fi

Well, I enjoy shooting it but I am still experimenting to try to improve accuracy.  Its probably a problem with the nut behind the trigger. 

That was a highlight of my Washington DC visit.  It was amazing to actually hold an original, and to share the experience with another builder.

It was great meeting you and seeing your rifle photos - helped a lot with my build!

My rifle's very accurate: stays within 2 inches or better at 50 yards sometimes 5 shots in an inch.  I have a little flintlock pause but not much. I use .636 round balls lubed with beeswax and I lubricate the bottom 1/3rd of the breech screw with plain old Maxi Lube and it never seizes up.

Have fired over 60 rounds so far and like the way it "ages" the appearance of the weapo.

Semper Fi

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Traditional Finish for Revolutionary Era British Long Arm?
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2014, 03:00:55 AM »
Hi Clark B
I have a 42 build date Springfield Armory that will weep linseed oil into a rag in the stock cavity to this day. Leave it in there for a few months and it come out yellow and smelling like linseed oil. I suspect that in 100 years the surface of the stock will still look just like it does now. An advantage over many modern finishes.

Dan

Yes, problems going on in the world at that time made it neccesary to use Linseed oil during the war. Tung Oil primarily comes from China, and we know they were too busy fighting to produce oil for us.
Psalms 144