Lighter (40-50 gr) prb loads for deer hunting?

[Skychief]

Anyone use lighter prb loads for deer hunting?

[Hungry Horse]

 Yes, in a .40 cal. rifle, on California blacktails, but not in larger calibers. Why would you increase the likelihood of crippling game, rather than going for  a clean kill?

                   Hungry Horse

[Ron T.]

I use 47 grains of Swiss or Goex FFFg in my older CVA cap-lock .50 caliber Hawken Carbine (24-inch barrel, 6½ lbs) on paper targets out to 50 yards, but that's a "target" load for my 3 different .50 caliber rifles (2 cap-lock Hawkens plus a flint-lock Long Rifle).

My deer hunting load is a fairly "light" load of 70 grains of Swiss FFFg in the Hawken Carbine which will often shoot "through" a whitetail if hit in the "kill zone".  That said, I should also mention that I have a "self-imposed" limit of 80 yards if shooting at any live target... including deer, coyotes or whatever.

If I were hunting elk, moose or black bear, I'd go to a heavier bullet (mini-ball) with a greater powder load than the Hornady swagged, patched round .50 caliber pure lead rifle ball I use on deer.  At 80 yards or less (mostly "less"), that patched, round ball does-the-job if I do my "job" which is accurately placing the rifle ball in the deer's "kill zone".

What you're NOT telling us is what caliber of muzzle-loader you have.  I've noticed that both .40 and .45 caliber muzzle-loaders are NOT "legal" for deer hunting in some States, but are "legal" in other States... so be SURE to check your local hunting laws prior to going into the woods after deer.   


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

[galamb]

I use 60 grains in my 40 cal for deer - it's my "main" deer rifle - been using it for 8 years or so now.

Why 60 grains and not 50 or 40? A couple of reasons.

First, I shoot from a bow stand located in fairly dense hardwoods. In the (first season) where I can use the muzzle loader there is still is some leaf cover so really have to stick to shooting bow lanes which are (max) 50 yards long with 35 yards more typical.

So while substantially less powder will get me that very short range I work up a load with the tightest Point Blank Range I can get using an amount of powder as close as possible to the maximum efficient powder charge (calculated at 11.5 grains of powder per cubic inch of barrel - which in the case of a 42" long, 40 cal IS 60 grains).

When I get my 38 built, which is legal for deer in my area - and I WILL use it, absolutely, without reservation (and I hunt Eastern Ontario Whitetails - not the dog sized deer you find in some places), it will get "probably" 40 or 45 grains of powder (since it will only be a 32" barrel and 42'ish grains would be the most efficient load unless that still leaves me a PBR variance exceeding 1").

For my 40 I found that the PBR out to 50 yard, using 60 grains, gives me a variance of about 1/2" -  so even with a bit of buck fever if I put the sights anywhere in the target area, Bambi is going to go down when I pull the trigger.

Using less powder may mean I have to "hold high" at 50 yards (ok, I'm being extreme here to make the point - which is, for me, I want it as flat as possible, within my range, without reaching the point of diminishing returns with regards to the amount of powder I put down the spout)

Ok, I use VooDoo  

[Skychief]

Ron T, it's a 45.

[hanshi]

Some states, including where I live, have a minimum requirement of 50 grains of black powder for deer hunting.  The minimum caliber allowed is .45 - except during regular gun season - and a .45 has taken half or more of my BP deer.  A "deer load" for my .40 is 60 grains of 3F.  For my .45s it's 60 to 70 grains  depending on the particular rifle.  In my .50 it's also 60 to 70 grains.

[Bob Roller]

 Here in WV,we have a rule that says the powder charge must be able to make the last two inches of the barrel turn red and stay red for at least a minute to eliminate the "fast loaders".

Bob Roller

[WadePatton]

Bob, I'm going to need a bigger powder horn for that sort of loading. 

For the record (FTR) here in the land of the Hog Rifle (TN), 36 is legal for big game, but then I'm not going bear or boar hunting with such a little stick.  (Never been bear or boar hunting either FTR).

[Osprey]

Here in the People's Republic of Maryland the minimum is 60 grains in rifles, 40 in pistols, with .40 the minimum caliber.  I use 60 when I carry the .40 (occasionally), 70gr if the .45, 80-90 gr in the .54 or 16 ga.

[Bob Roller]

 A .36 might be OK IF it is a 9.3x74R but deer and black bear with a .36
 round ball?No, thanks. In WV,wise cracks aside it is the .38 but still too
light for a sure kill.
My silly remark came from Bob Watts,a local shooter who watched me shoot my 44 Special
S&W with an Elmer Keith type load and he said the "Last two inches of the barrel turned red"
with every shot.
As far as a round ball muzzle loader is concerned I will take a 50-54-58 for deer and black
bear backed with at least 75 grains of 3fg.

Bob Roller

[longcruise]

My lightest ever deer load was 60 gr goex ff in a .50. Fifty yards, double lung, deer bawled once and dropped dead.  Lungs were wrecked.  Have an idea that 50 grains would have worked just as well!

[LH]

I've killed deer with a 40lb recurve which is measureably less effective than a .40cal ball with 40 gr of powder.  Know your sporting arms' limitations and capabilities and stay within effective range.  Then,  make proper shot placement.   I've seen several 700lb steers killed cleanly with one shot from a .22 rimfire.  The muzzle was either touching the front of the skull or within a couple of inches.   

[Long John]

If it were legal, I would be tempted to use my 36 for doe season.  I've taken eastern coyotes with it and  they dropped like a bad habit. 

If the deer is within a range where I can hit a sliver dollar, off-hand, then I can put that little ball where it will do the job.  That is the key - with lighter loads and smaller bullets shot placement becomes more critical.  There isn't a deer around that can ignore a 36 caliber ball at 1700 FPS hitting that spot between the eye and the ear.  But....if you can't consistently hit that spot then you are likely to put the ball through the lower jaw, nose, neck, etc. and while ultimately lethal, it might take a couple of weeks for the deer to die.  So it becomes an ethical thing.  I opt for a load that gives me the margin of error I need to be sure of a humane kill.

Best Regards,

JMC

[bob in the woods]

John, I hear what you say; but if a shot to the brain is a definition of what makes a deer rifle, my 17 HMR would qualify .
I had a .36 but switched to a .40 precisely because I often encounter less than optimal shots. I actually won't take a head shot because one twitch or small movement is enough to be off by enough to cause a severe wound rather than instant death.  Even with a .36 , I'd much prefer a good lung /heart shot.    Here, the bush is thick, and shooting distances welcome exceed 30 yds.  City people on one side of me don't allow hunting, so can't risk a deer dashing off to expire over the fence line !   With my .62 or my 10 bore , this has never happened.

[Standing Bear]

50 gr maybe, 40 gr no. Increased mass and velocity do not make up for poor placement but--as Roy Weatherby said "speed kills".

Too many potentials for a twig, sudden movement, wind shift etc to move point of impact 2-3" getting a shoulder blade or an angle on a rib that would result in a wounded, lost or long trailed deer.  A higher muzzle velocity with a .45 (marginally minimum for PRB IMO) could help on such a slightly off target hit.  Much more trauma on soft tissue.
TC

[WadePatton]

I don't understand the concept of "light" loading for killing shots (hunting).

I want the most accurate shot first, then i want the heavier version for hunting because I just need to develop the load once.  It's not like i shoot 23 deer per year or a lot of full-loads at targets (in fat bore) and need to conserve powder.  I do understand  a _single_  loading (per powder) for anything less than, especially if accuracy demands it.  

Just being curious as to "light" loading for shots on critters.  I've always been a fan of LEAD over velocity for hunting.  But won't short-change the game if i can help it, and flatter faster harder is my gift to them.  

Paper and gongs, a dink is a hit!

[WadePatton]

...
My silly remark came from Bob Watts,a local shooter who watched me shoot my 44 Special
S&W with an Elmer Keith type load and he said the "Last two inches of the barrel turned red"
with every shot.
...
Bob Roller

Gotcha. Yeah i run a little lighter than EK.

[Skychief]

Wade, I appreciate where you are coming from.  My biggest concern is quick, humane kills too.

I should have mentioned that I have a 3/4" barrel and a petite little stock on the rifle in question.  It shoots very accurately with 45 grains of 3f with a home cast .445 prb.

I have used traditional bows for deer hunting for years, and, have no problem waiting on very short shots on deer that are postured perfectly.  Hopefully this extra information will ally your concerns that I may be one that will hunt outside of my or my equipment's capability for those quick and humane kills.

I was wanting to read of others experiences because of my commitment to the deer I hunt.   

Best regards, Skychief.

[WadePatton]

And now we has the rest of the story.  Now i get your angle.  Thanks for 'splainin'.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Under those circumstances, ie:  ranges out to fifty yards max and a perfect broadside shot or angling away just a tad, your 45 gr. FFFg load in a 45 cal will do the job just fine.  But shot placement is crucial, just as it is with a traditional (or any kind) bow.  Basically, you'd be using a pistol load, so your range needs to be within reason.  Incidentally, your rifle will tolerate 60 gr. just fine too, and that is a much more efficient load.  If recoil is your concern, under hunting situations, I rarely feel the recoil for the one shot I deliver.

[moleeyes36]

Here in WV,we have a rule that says the powder charge must be able to make the last two inches of the barrel turn red and stay red for at least a minute to eliminate the "fast loaders".

Bob Roller

I'm a NRA Range Safety Officer at a couple of the local gun clubs.  When I'm on duty as ML season is approaching, I see a lot of "shooters" dusting off their muzzle loaders, mostly plastic Buck Rogers guns, from the back of a closet somewhere (where they've been since last hunting season ended) and coming out to the range to "sight 'em in".  Most seem to be trying to use a load similar to what Bob jokes about.  They nearly all seem to think they have to use a heavy conical bullet in a plastic sabot and three 50 grain pellets of fake black powder to kill a deer when here in Florida a good size deer is 125 pounds.  The recoil from a heavy load in one of those light "guns" is horrific so they all flinch so bad from it they can't hit much of anything.  After a few shots they're in so much pain they stop shooting and put them away until opening day arrives.

Some people just think that "mo' powder is mo' better" all the time.  I've come to the conclusion over the years that a whole lot of hunters, muzzle loader and modern gun users, don't understand the concept of matching their guns and loads to the game they're hunting and the hunting conditions.

Mole Eyes

[Daryl]

If your big game hunting range is very close where you hunt, then, of course you can get away with a lighter load. Close range negates to some extent the accuracy and trajectory requirement Wade spoke of.

I have 48" twist guns, 60" and 66" twist rifles and the all demand heavier charges than 90% of the fellows on this site use.  By DEMAND, I mean they will not shoot well with oiled patches and the lighter charges that many guys here say they use.

My next shot at a buck, whitetail or muley might be at 50 yards or it might be at 150 or 175yards in a logging slash or across a small in-bush meadow.

Thus, I work up a load with THE patch and THE lube I am going to use. I am looking for the very best accuracy that rifle will give me and that ALWAYS in what many here consider a large or maybe even an excessive charge.
 
With a slippery lube, my .45 uses 75gr. 3F or 85gr. 2F.  That gives me the accuracy and flatness of trajectory (velocity just over 2,200fps) to shoot to about 140yards - about maximum on deer, without even having to think about trajectory.
Both loads shoot as cleanly with those charges as with a water based lubed patch and 55gr. 3F - in other words, easy loading of successive loads with the rifle's rod.

My .58, with a 48" twist rifling is the anomaly here, where it shoots well with a mere 85gr. 2F producing 3", 5 shot groups at 100 meters off the bench with a mere 1,308fps muzzle velocity. Because it has military sights, hitting the 250yard gong at Hefley was not difficult - some walking-up of ball impacts was required.

That 85gr. 2F is the same load that my .45 makes me use with an oiled patch with it's 60" twist.

I do not believe in squib loads for general hunting of big game - not in this area, at least.

Come across a large hungry black (or grizzly) bear and ask him to wait while you pull that close-range target load & replace it with a load that might work a bit better.

 imho, of course

[Joe S]

I hunted with a longbow for many years.  One of the most important lessons I learned was the value of having a hole in both sides of the animal so there is a good blood trail.  Since, like an arrow, round balls kill by bleeding, I want two holes in the animal.  Like Daryl, I may shoot out to 100 yards or maybe a little more.  My longest shot to date is about 80 yards on a deer.  The bullet entered the front chest just left of center and exited the right hip.  This is my idea of adequate penetration.

Since both elk and bear are a possibility in my area, I hunt with a .54.  My .54 requires 90 grains of 2F to shoot accurately.  I wouldn’t mind shooting 75 or 80 grains, but the rifle does not perform well with those loads.

The question I would ask myself is, under your hunting conditions, would the loads you are considering put a hole in both sides of the deer?

[galamb]

My 40 cal, shooting PRB over 60 grains of powder (FFF) has shot through and through on the four occasions it has been fired at Bambi.

All four were shot with the deer standing still - three broadside and one quartering away at distances between 21 and 32 yards (my bow distance from my bow stand).

At that range, under those conditions, my 40 cal is way more than sufficient and humane. The longest recovery was barely 70 yards.

I plan on replacing my 40 cal with a 38 (which is also legal where I hunt - initially was going to move "up" to a 45 but changed my mind).

Would I take a 70 yard shot on a moving deer - NO - quartering towards or head on - NO

For me it's about patience and finesse to get Bambi exactly where I want him (super close and standing still) - that's part of "MY GAME".

So for me, hunting Eastern Ontario Whitetails (usually well north of 200lbs standing weight - not those little deer in other areas) a 38 cal WILL be enough and probably with 50'ish grains of FFF pushing a .375" round ball.

Would I recommend this to someone starting out - NO - or used to shooting a larger caliber - NO - but if you are willing to wait for "the shot" and disciplined enough to pass all others, then you don't need great calibers or great powder charges to shoot completely through a deer - they just aren't that tough...

[bob in the woods]

Sort of like being a dedicated smoothbore hunter     My main hunting flintlock of choice is my fowling gun.  Shots that would be OK to take with a rifle are sometimes out of the question.  It's a simple matter of attitude.  If all I wanted was a deer, I'd take the .270