Author Topic: Hawken style full stock need info (Added side plate photo)  (Read 7501 times)

Offline bama

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Hawken style full stock need info (Added side plate photo)
« on: July 17, 2014, 07:26:07 PM »
Guys here is a rocky mountain styled rifle that I would like to get your input on. This rifle is missing the original lock but everything else seems original to the gun. It was painted brown at one time and most of the paint is worn off but you can still see remnants of the paint in some of the close ups. Sorry the pictures are not the best. Let me know what your thoughts are on where this rifle may have been built and by who. I can not find any names or stamps on it anywhere.




















« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 05:03:32 PM by bama »
Jim Parker

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Offline bama

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Re: Hawken style full stock need info
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2014, 03:44:24 PM »
Man I can't believe that as many Hawken guys and mountain man types we have on this board that nobody is commenting on this rifle.

This rifle has so many of the same traits that the Hawken has it has to be somehow related to that time period. I know that it is not a Hawken but I believe that it is from the same time frame if not possibly a little earlier. This rifles butt stock is similar to the Hawken except for the Kentucky style cheek piece which my mean that it is earlier. It has a nice shaped Iron trigger guard that is similar in shape except for the front of the guard. I have seen this style guard on other rifles, I think it was on Tryon or maybe on an English gun.

What about the band instead of a nose cap? This band is original to the rifle, has anybody seen this before? Walnut painted stock, anybody seen that before?

I am not familiar with this time frame or what makers were building guns during this time frame for the fur trade, so help me out here.
Jim Parker

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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Hawken style full stock need info
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2014, 05:16:38 PM »
 I'm sorry, but I see very little that says Hawkens. Maybe caliber would point in this direction, but the caliber was not mentioned. The trigger guard is an english style guard, similar in some ways to the Hawken brothers work, but not exact. The replacement lock has a Bedford style hammer that wouldn't be very common in the West. the abrupt transition of the comb to the wrist is interesting, but not a Hawken characteristic either. The band nose cap looks like it may have been added after the barrel was slightly shortened. The front sights location so close to the muzzle would support this theory. The other hardware looks a little to fancy for a Hawken mountain rifle. And the tang is very crude, when compared to a real Hawken rifle. JMO.

                   Hungry Horse

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: Hawken style full stock need info
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2014, 06:20:13 PM »
What is the caliber?
                    Dan

Offline bama

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Re: Hawken style full stock need info
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2014, 11:17:21 PM »
The bore measures .56. Guys I never said it was a Hawken, I do not think it is a Hawken. I just said it was Hawken like, it is a big bore gun that is walnut stocked with iron trim. To me it looks like a Mid Western gun of the Fur Trade era and I was hoping that some of you had seen something similar to this rifle and a possible maker.

I am not trying to pass this off as a Hawken gun. Just looking for info.
Jim Parker

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galamb

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Re: Hawken style full stock need info
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2014, 12:35:47 AM »
Agree with some of the comments. I did have a look and my first though was English (maybe - kinda).

The trigger guard, single trigger and lock reminds me of a Henry (the English dude :), but the lock plate is not bar style which would be typical and the snail doesn't appear to be what an English maker would have used - they liked those little plugs that would blow out).

The nose of the comb appears quite "high" and (squarish) - seems a little (harsh) for a St. Louis (or area) rifle. If I saw nothing but the nose of the comb I would say NY target rifle or maybe even North Carolina.

The shape of the tang and the cheek piece is more "eastern" than "western" (although yes, the Hawken brothers built in that style "mainly" earlier on, but they "were" Maryland gunmakers in the first place.

The style of the snail (and it looks to be attached to the barrel and not hooked in the Hawken style) looks like what you would see later in the percussion period (it's general shape/style) - like maybe late 1840's at the earliest.

Being stocked with Walnut might tend to indicate "earlier" if it was western built (not the greatest indicator but I have read a few references that indicate walnut may have been more popular in the 1840's and earlier out west, possibly due to cost/availability but that by the late 1840's sugar maple was available is great quantities, rather inexpensively, in places like St. Louis. So one of those sometimes/but not always indicators).

I think all you can say about the rifle is "it was probably build in the States" at some point during the percussion era and that it is a full-stock that has the general appearance of what is referred to as a plains/mountain style rifle.

The builder may have been influenced by English rifles and the fact that it's a little "Hawken'ish" could be purely coincidental - he/she may have never seen a St. Louis rifle (Hawken, Dimick etc).



Offline wildcatter

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Re: Hawken style full stock need info
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2014, 02:37:09 AM »
I posted a rifle very, very similar to this one here is the thread. Both have the same band nose caps and the same thimbles. See what you think.http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=30527.msg292475#msg292475
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galamb

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Re: Hawken style full stock need info
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2014, 03:57:23 AM »
Do you have a pic of the sideplate on the rifle in this thread? might narrow down an area it may have come from.

Offline bama

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Re: Hawken style full stock need info (Added side plate photo)
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2014, 05:33:16 PM »
Sorry about missing the side plate photo, I didn't realize I had left it out.

Wildcatter the rifle you posted looks like it used the same thimbles and lock, the muzzle band is a little different but it still along the same lines as this rifle. Thanks very much for the link to your post.

I knew there had to be some connections out there somewhere.
Jim Parker

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Offline Dave B

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Re: Hawken style full stock need info (Added side plate photo)
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2014, 09:34:52 PM »
This is an interesting piece. The trigger guard is similar to ones I have seen made in NY, New England area. The band at the muzzle end is the same as the bands I have seen on Leman trade rifles. Thanks for sharing the photos.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline Curt J

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Re: Hawken style full stock need info (Added side plate photo)
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2014, 05:42:26 AM »
Interesting rifle, Jim.  I would be inclined to think that it is Midwestern, where there was more demand for a rifle like this. Like most Midwestern makers, he almost certainly learned the trade "back east", and details in style stayed with him, even though the rifle itself was of a different type than he might have made there. Having owned and fondled several hundred Midwestern rifles, I'd have to say that walnut and maple are about 50/50, all through the percussion period. Some makers may have preferred one over the other, but it seems likely that it was often left to the customer to decide which wood he wanted his new rifle stocked in.

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Hawken style full stock need info (Added side plate photo)
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2014, 04:09:09 PM »
 Not much help on this piece, but wanted to head off a  possible mis perception or two. Many original Hawken fullstocks did not have a hooked breech. I would even go so far as saying the hooked breech is the exception on the full stock.  Also, even though it is an oddiity, my own original S Hawken full stock has a single trigger. It has the typical long trigger bar with guard attached but just the simple single trigger.
 The tennessee style cheekpiece is also typical of both S. and J&S Hawken fullstocks. The late Smithsonian and School of the Ozarks rifles are the exceptions. Those two have lots of oddities.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Hawken style full stock need info (Added side plate photo)
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2014, 05:35:57 PM »
 I think the acorn finial on the patchbox on the second rifle might be a hint. The second rifle has many more Hawken features than the first. The ramrod pipes are the same, and the general configuration are the same, which leads me to believe they are by the same hand. The brown painted rifle may be a restock, with additional parts replacements.

               Hungry Horse

4th La.

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Re: Hawken style full stock need info (Added side plate photo)
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2014, 04:53:23 AM »
Bama, I would look at the paint on the stock real close, I think it may be a faded red not brown. Also the lock bolt sideplate and toe plate are pictured in "The Plains Rifle" by Charles E. Hanson Jr. on page 38.  This is out of a Tryon catalog . He also offered single triggers and plates similar to the one on this rifle. Would like to see the trigger guards that were available. Not saying this is a Hawken or a Tryon. Just saying I feel it has Tryon parts, and that it was around some of the same campfires as the Hawkens. Will you have this rifle with you at the CLA show next week ?

CARROLLCO

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Re: Hawken style full stock need info (Added side plate photo)
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2014, 05:14:46 AM »
To me, by no means any sort of expert, the side plate looks like an "owl 's head". Unusual. I like that feature and made a drawing for future reference.

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: Hawken style full stock need info (Added side plate photo)
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2014, 08:20:13 PM »
Trade rifle, maybe?
                                 Dan