Author Topic: .69 powder charge  (Read 12471 times)

Tommykid

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.69 powder charge
« on: July 28, 2014, 09:06:20 PM »
I have a .69 Jaeger style flintlock which I recently purchased and shot for the first time, yesterday. I don't know who the builder is, but I believe the gun was made in the 1990s and is in very good condition. 1:66 twist, 32" barrel.   I started off with .678 balls, .018 ticking, Moose Snot lube, and 90 grains of Goex FF. The previous owner recommended the 90 grain FF charge, as that's what he used. The gun was clover-leafing at 50 yards and I was pleased with that for the first time out. My question is how much more powder can I use? 90 seems a bit light for a .69, but it's shooting well enough. Does anyone have any experiences with a .69 and have a pet load for comparison?
Thanks,
Tom

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2014, 11:21:20 PM »
Why do you want more powder - the gun is shooting accurately with what you already know?  If you are trying to match modern ballistics you are going in the wrong direction.  A .69 caliber ball at any reasonable velocity delivers a fearsome blow for most any North American game animal.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2014, 11:26:25 PM »
I use up to 120 gr FFG in my .62 , usually for moose, and the reason I up the charge from my usual 100gr [ deer, and sometimes bear ] is for a flatter trajectory.  I know for a fact that the 100 gr load will shoot clear through a decent sized black bear at under 40 yards
Same with my 10 bore .  120 to 140 gr FFG when out for moose.   100 gr FFG has gone through a 300 lb plus black bear and several deer, so I can vouch for the lethality of the load.   My question for you is…how far will you be shooting ?    Flatter trajectory makes hitting your target easier.  I like the 120 gr charge for my .62 because I can shoot a moose out to a 100 yards or a little further and not worry about adjusting my sight picture.  

Offline George Sutton

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2014, 12:58:35 AM »
IMHO 90 grains will punch a hole through any animal on the continent with maybe the exception of a large grizzly. With that being said, if you hit the grizzly in the right spot you could clean his clock too!! ;D


Centershot
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 12:59:46 AM by Centershot »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2014, 02:11:31 AM »
I have a .69 Jaeger style flintlock which I recently purchased and shot for the first time, yesterday. I don't know who the builder is, but I believe the gun was made in the 1990s and is in very good condition. 1:66 twist, 32" barrel.   I started off with .678 balls, .018 ticking, Moose Snot lube, and 90 grains of Goex FF. The previous owner recommended the 90 grain FF charge, as that's what he used. The gun was clover-leafing at 50 yards and I was pleased with that for the first time out. My question is how much more powder can I use? 90 seems a bit light for a .69, but it's shooting well enough. Does anyone have any experiences with a .69 and have a pet load for comparison?
Thanks,
Tom

Depends on what you want to do. With a ball this large power is not a factor for most uses.
However, if you need a flat trajectory then you need more powder, 90 likely is giving something under 1350. This will not shoot flat to even 100 yards, 120-140 will give much flatter trajectory. If you try it you will likely find that if its on at 50 it will be so low at 100  as to require hold over to strike the vitals of a deer. If sighted for 100 it may be so high as to need hold under at 50. Testing will confirm.
To give really good point blank range,  2.5 to  3" maximum height above line of sight and the ball "on" at 100-120  from a ball this large you may need 140-160 grains of a powder like Swiss. This will keep the ball in the kill zone of deer to 120-130 yards.
This WILL produce a lot of recoil.
Forsythe speaking from the 1850s tells us that with a hardened ball his 14 bore rifle (.69) with a "#15 ball" and 137 gr of Halls #2 (probably about like FFF Swiss) would shoot through an Indian Elephants head from side to side.
I have a rifle using a 16 gauge ball that I use 140 gr of FF Swiss in and it produces 1600 FPS, and is point blank for deer to about 120 yards if sighted 1"+  high at 100.

Many people feel that heavy charges serve no purpose and while it is true that killing power, especially at longer ranges, is not greatly enhanced with a RB, the ability to PLACE the shot IS enhanced and shot placement trumps power so long as penetration is sufficient. Being able to more easily place the shot is the advantage of the higher velocity.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2014, 05:56:26 AM »
Thanks Dan.  You conveyed what I said, only in a better,  more detailed manner.  Another reason I use the larger charges is that a moose is a large animal, and so can look to be closer than it actually is.  When I take a shot at what I believe to be 120 yards or so,…if I'm another 25 yards out I still should be in the zone. I don't plan on taking the further shot, but real life i.e. a big moose in the tag alders , can be further out than you think.

Tommykid

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2014, 05:56:50 PM »
Thanks for the replies. I should have mentioned my intent to begin with. I'll be using this for deer in NJ, where shots will be under 100 yards. To be honest, with my eyes, 50 yards is about it. I don't necessarily want more powder, but not having experience with this caliber, I wanted to see what other folks were shooting so I could perhaps add more powder to see if the gun liked it or not. It's shooting well, but a little experimenting never hurt. The guidance is appreciated.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2014, 06:21:43 PM »
 My question is, if you are shooting at relatively short range, with a ball big enough to do a heck of a job on any deer, if it just get  to the target, at any velocity, why subject yourself, and your gun, to the abuse? I just had a heart to heart talk with a new shooter, who kept winding up his new Navy Arms Harpers Ferry, to get it to shoot flatter. After a couple of dozen shots, it fractured at the wrist, destroying the stock, and narrowly avoided a serious injury to the owner.

                  Hungry Horse

Offline Daryl

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2014, 10:30:12 PM »
Tom- I shoot a 14 bore (.69) with a 32" bl.  Dan shoots a 16 bore actually .67 calibre and he knows what he is talking about with regards to these wonderful weapons & how to feed them for best effect.  Where Dan hunts and  I where hunt, trajectory - being able to hit over unknown ranges is very important.
My 14 bore shoots just fine to 100yards IF 3" groups are enough off a bench-rest with sand bags. 100gr. of powder will give me that. If I want to shoot more accurately and for hunting, my minimum charge in my 9 1/2 pound caplock rifle is 140gr. of new GOEX.  This charge has proven it's worth in shooting at targets at 200yards, both from the bench and from hunting positions - cross sticks and offhand.  My previous hunting charge and most accurate load was 165gr. 2F.  With that charge my rifle, in the past has shot a number of 5 shot groups at 100 meters that were under 1 1/2"- using a .684" round ball and .025" (compressed) denim patch. With balls that size, a group that small is a single just over a 2" diameter hole, normally.  I have put 4 went into a smaller hole, 1.2" on centres, with one out making 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" groups.  I used to shoot it a lot at 100 meters off the bags.
About any load will shoot into a tiny 1" hole at 25 or 50yards, but it takes more powder to shoot well, further out.
I did buy a 15 bore (.678") mould, casting .675" balls in WW alloy, and find they shoot very nearly identically to the larger .684" balls and with the same thick patch.  With the powder charges I use, I find my rifle demands I use a thicker patch than most people are comfortable loading. If I use thinner patches, accuracy suffers and they show burn marks.
Time to experiment!
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Tommykid

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2014, 05:20:31 PM »
Dan/Daryl....thanks very much. This info is exactly what I was looking for. Those are some serious charges. I doubt I'll ever need to be able to shoot that flat at longer distances, but now I know what I need to do if I want to. I'll still do some load development and try to find that sweet spot without excessive recoil.
Tom

Offline Dphariss

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2014, 04:59:20 AM »
My question is, if you are shooting at relatively short range, with a ball big enough to do a heck of a job on any deer, if it just get  to the target, at any velocity, why subject yourself, and your gun, to the abuse? I just had a heart to heart talk with a new shooter, who kept winding up his new Navy Arms Harpers Ferry, to get it to shoot flatter. After a couple of dozen shots, it fractured at the wrist, destroying the stock, and narrowly avoided a serious injury to the owner.

                  Hungry Horse

You miss the point. Where I live without a range finder it is possible to misjudge the range on a deer or elk by 100 yards or more. A friend and I, the friend very experienced, missed really big bull due to a 125-130 yard error back in the pre-range finder days when hunting with a BPCRs. Objects of unknown size by 400-500 yards. This its REALLY easy to misjudge by 50 so if one THINKS its 75 and its really 125 having a load that will hit the kill zone at either range with the same hold is important. A low velocity load simply will not "cut it".

I hunt in areas where 40 yards is a long shot and others like the photo below where I can see the animal (with a spotting scope) at 2-3 miles and then have to figure how to get within rifle range without the animal seeing me. Antelope have fantastic distance vision and will see you and may well leave at a MILE or more. If one always hunts from tree stands and/or in heavy cover then velocity is not that important. Heck you can put out painted rocks at known ranges from a stand or blind.
I can and have killed deer and antelope with a ML pistol. But its not something I expect to do unless I set out to do this.

Antelope, unreachable since  they are about 1500 yards off the state land boundry.

Even if it were public land I would have a heck of a time getting to them and would end up traversing probably 2-3 miles with several hundred feet of elevation change more than once to stay out of sight and smell and then, if they don't move, could not get into ML range anyway where they are.
The snow in the foothills in the distance? The closest is 20 miles or so.
I have walked as much as 50 miles in the course filling my deer/Anterlope tags and drive literally hundreds of miles as well on county roads checking public land so I can spot and stalk.
And like Daryl said light loads are usually less accurate.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Daryl

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2014, 07:01:42 PM »
140gr. 2F GOEX load noted previously - 9 1/2 pound rifle.

Aiming at 200yard target:



Shot taken, picture at about full recoil, thanks to Taylor's skill with a camera.

Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Vomitus

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2014, 08:15:34 PM »
 ;D Serves you right!  ;D

Offline WadePatton

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2014, 06:59:11 AM »




Daryl looking for some skeets!   ;D


PULL!


...
Hold to the Wind

Offline Daryl

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2014, 06:27:58 AM »
;D Serves you right!  ;D


hahahahahahaha!
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

brooktrout

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2014, 12:00:35 AM »
Hum.  Guess there is no reason to consider this:

http://goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/RB-Rifle-Musket.pdf

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2014, 12:29:13 AM »
Those loads look OK up to and including the .54   Why they down grade the charges at .58 and up I have no idea. ???
It don't make sense, since those larger bores with those charges would have less pressure than the .54 and smaller .
My .54 happens to like 100 gr FFg with a .530 ball  I could go to 120 gr but my group opens up. If hunting deer in the woods, I'll often load 80 gr only, but I just for the life of me can't agree that the .62 should be limited to less than the .54.
I'll stick with my .62  120 gr FFg load.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2014, 12:45:33 AM »
Hum.  Guess there is no reason to consider this:

http://goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/RB-Rifle-Musket.pdf

It's rather vague without any bbl length reference and by golly i'll _always_ develop loads for both powders (2f and 3f) from 40-54.  But sure it's a fine jumping off point if you don't have a good group of like-minded shooters to discuss things with.   :D

Oh my yes, those big bore loads are way light,  must be for squirrels and paper.  :P
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 12:47:26 AM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Offline Old Ford2

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2014, 02:59:53 PM »
Never surrender, always take a few with you.
Let the Lord pick the good from the bad!

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2014, 04:51:15 PM »
Maybe the light charges for .58 caliber and larger are for rifle-muskets or muskets?
                                      Dan

Offline Daryl

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2014, 06:10:45 PM »
It could be there were looking at skinny barrel walls in military-type rifles in the larger bores- or seemingly light maximum loads listed by manufacturers.
For pressure reasons, I stick with 2F for larger bores - from .50 up - 2f has ALWAYS given me better accuracy in those rifles over 3F.  It does take more 2F to achieve that accuracy and match 3f speeds, but- 2F does not foul more than 3F WHEN you use a decent ball and patch combo- ie: snug.

If you refer to the old Lyman BP handbook, you can see a relationship between velocity and pressure - all the way up through the calibres using either 3F or 2F.
Using a .54 bl. and 2F, at a certain speed, the pressure listed is very similar to the same velocity produced by 2F in the .58 they used, however the .58 needed much more powder to achieve that velocity and thus that pressure. This is ALL logical and is as it should be.
Thus, at 1,700fps in a .54, the pressure produced is the same as the pressure produced in a .58 at the same speed. it takes a LOT more powder to do that in a .58 - hence, to get a flatter trajectory in a larger bore, you need to feed the rifle more powder and soak up the increased recoil - same as with modern rifles- very little difference.  The larger the bore, the more powder it takes to produce the same speed - but - the pressure is the same or less than what the smaller bore produced at that speed- generally.

As to lighter chargers in the .58's- many Italian companies list max pressures at 8,500cup/lup/psi or around there- thus published data will reflect that. For example, their data for the .72 side by side Kodiak is something like 85gr.2F.  That charge in that bore size will produce something like 1,100fps-maybe.  Some of the guys on another forum with those rifles are getting regulation at 150 to 175gr. T7 of all things.  I do NOT recommend those loads or those that follow.  Others are using 150 to 175gr. of 2F GOEX and getting reasonable regulation of the barrels.
Others find it does not matter what they do they won't regulate.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Old Ford2

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2014, 09:42:07 PM »
To Daryl & Dan'l
You are very right those are minie ball loads.
90-120 grain charges will blow the minie  ball skirts.
Good observation!
Fred
Never surrender, always take a few with you.
Let the Lord pick the good from the bad!

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2014, 09:52:48 PM »
Thanks Fred. When I was shooting Minie balls, I had a mold that made a thicker skirt. Had no trouble using 100 grains of FFg with it.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2014, 01:23:18 AM »
To Daryl & Dan'l
You are very right those are minie ball loads.
90-120 grain charges will blow the minie  ball skirts.
Good observation!
Fred

man i gettin' smarter alla time (larnin')

thank y'all for making sense of the matter!
Hold to the Wind

Offline Daryl

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Re: .69 powder charge
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2014, 03:12:53 AM »
The chart from that address lists a .580" ball's weight - not a Minnie ball's weight.
The veloctiies I see are high compared to what Taylor's .50 Virginia provided with normal GOEX 2F as well. His 80gr. charge delivered barely over 1,500fps (might have been only 1,450fps IIRC) - not 1,730fps as noted for 2F.

Their .40 cal. speeds are low compared to what my Goodoien barrel produces with 3F GOEX.
Their .45 cal speeds are really low - 300fps with the 70gr. charge.

Much of course, can depend on lubes, barrel length- cap or flint and how big is the vent or hole in the nipple.

It appears the chart is made from a program, not real life - the ball weight are heavier than anyone here uses as they are true weights for bore sized balls ie:  

.360" ball weighs 70 gr.
.400" ball weighs 96gr.
.500" ball weighs 188gr.
.520" ball weighs 211gr.
.540" ball weighs 236gr.
.580" ball weighs 293 gr.
.690" ball weighs 493gr.
.700" ball weighs 514gr.

I strongly suspect these are proposed velocities developed on a computer, not actually chronographed loads as no one I've heard of uses balls of these sizes.  I've used some fairly close, but not many of them - no one does.  

For example, 398" in my .398 bore sized .40, and .690" store bought in my .69 as well as .454's and .457's in a deep grooved .45 cal. bl. and tried .508's in Taylor's Virginia rifle but that's it.

There are match shooters who use oversized balls, but generally they are larger than bore, not exactly bore size.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 03:15:58 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V