pyrodex

[mlbrant]

can any of the muzzleloading barrels made by GReen Mountain, Colerain, Burton, Rayl ,Getz be used with pyrodex? What about modern shotgun barrel blanks/ If not, what barrels would you suggest to use for building  a gun. BP is really hard to come by where I live.  Thanks

[WadePatton]

Where do you live?  UPS brings my black powder to the doorstep.  

I wouldn't put the other stuff (although i was young and dumb and brainwashed and used it at one time) in the bbl of an enemy.  

Please read up on it.  (here of course, not out there in "armchair expert" land).

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=23868.15

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8283.0

Welcome to the forum.

[Bob Roller]

Any barrel made for black powder can be used with Pyrodex or 777.
The best thing to do would be to buy a case of real black powder which
would be 25 pounds.
 Bob Roller

[Acer Saccharum]

I couldn't get my barrel to stop rusting with Pyrodex. Will Pyro work in a flintlock?

Black powder, no problem with rust or ignition.

[galamb]

Where I am black powder is also very expensive to come by.

I can not import from the US, hazmat fees in Canada are horrendous and the two closest suppliers are 3 and 4 1/2 hours drive away and then sells for $30/pound when I get there.

I occasionally run out of real black. I have used and will continue to use Pyrodex P in my rifles when necessary. I get it for $18/pound. However, I only use it in caplocks and make sure I shoot it with a #11 CCI Mag cap (just my personal way to do it).

It always goes boom, I don't notice much difference between it and black the way I shoot. It's certainly no easier to clean even though it's marketed that way.

It works, it's safe to shoot and better than leaving the rifles in the safe if you can't get Goex.

[Old Bob]

I couldn't get my barrel to stop rusting with Pyrodex. Will Pyro work in a flintlock?

Black powder, no problem with rust or ignition.

A fellow gave me a pound once. Reckon I should do something with it before it goes bad. Contrary to what many people have said, it will work in a flintlock. Just how reliably I do not know. I loaded a blank charge (so I wouldn't have to pull the ball), primed with ffffg, and let'er go. I just did the once, so I don't know if it was a fluke or not. I've only shot two rounds of the stuff in my life. A cousin of mine used it close to 30 years ago and told me that repeated use of it caused some kind of hard to remove fouling.

[J Henry]

  NO "EXpert" however all I have ever shot is Pyrodex,, from GA to Maine,it works for me in my capper. Read where it takes a hotter ignition source to go off. Used it in my Underhammer,Lyman GPR and capper pistol worked just fine.. Clean up is the same ,clean and clean again,,just like any BP firearm,,,, Then you have the die hard that would rather be eaten by a bear than shoot it with Pyrodex,,to each his own'
  Read lots of posting where it isn't as reliable in Flinters due to the ignition requiring a hotter heat source to set it off,,can't say as I have never shot Real Black Powder nor shot a flinter.
  I would use what I could get before I would stop shooting..
  Do what works for you,try both and then decide!!!!

[hanshi]

Pyrodex is safe in any barrel meant for black powder.  I have no experience with it in long guns, only cap & ball revolvers and .45 Colt cartridges.  I have 3 or 4 cans of Pyrodex of different grades that a friend gave me a long time ago.  I was very unimpressed with it and much prefer black.  I know that sometimes black is hard to get, expensive or both.  In such a case a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

[Virginiarifleman]

Takes a hotter ignition to ignite from my experiences with it years ago in cap locks.

[valongrifles]

Pyrodex also doesn't have the sulfur odor! That's one of the reasons for shooting to start with!!

[frontier gander]

uh.... pyrodex smells like rear end after a night of drinking and eating mexican food.

You are thinking triple 7 or american pioneer that does not have sulfur in it.

[Bob Roller]

A few years ago,another forum,BP-L allowed me to bring up the Verboten subject of Pyrodex.
My inquiry brought out several chemists who said that the fumes from Pyrodex were cyanide
and if you want to dispatch yourself,take a cup full into a pantry,light it and inhale the fumes and
a quiet end will occur.Somewhat better than an old friend of mine who put a 44 Magnum in his mouth and let one off. Made one $#*! of a mess for his wife to find.One old Englishman said Pyrodex was dirty,smelly,corrosive and expensive and he saw no need or use for it.

Bob Roller

[frontier gander]

I've read that BP smoke will kill you to, but I think its all BS personally.

Anyone want to start a fund for experimental rats? 

[Bob Roller]

When degreed chemists who earn a living with their knowledge of chemistry tell me something is potentially lethal.I listen.When the best anyone can counter them with is an argument,I don't pay much attention.

Bob Roller

[galamb]

So I'm looking at the MSDS for both products we are discussing here and have to say I don't see a "whole whack" of difference.

Both contain:

charcoal (Goex 8-18%), Pyrodex (8%)

sulfur (Goex 9-20%), Pyrodex (8%)

potassium nitrate (Goex 70-76%, Pyrodex 30%)

and a trace of graphite (to make the granules "slippery"??)

The real difference is Pyrodex's replacement of some of the sulfur and a great amount of the potassium nitrate with potassium perchlorate, which is a "salt" (corrosive to steel) that is used as an oxidizer which can be "safely used in the presence of sulfur".

In it's pure form, Potassium Perchlorate is also used as an anti-thyroid medication - so in and of itself it certainly is not the "poison pill" in the concoction.

[WadePatton]

When degreed chemists who earn a living with their knowledge of chemistry tell me something is potentially lethal.I listen. When the best anyone can counter them with is an argument, I don't pay much attention.

Bob Roller

I stand on the same side of the fence as Bob Roller. 

And not just the "toxicity" issue.  I think Dan has always been clear about the negatives of perchlorated powders, and he ...

Well here's "MadMonk" from one of the great long threads (linked in my first reply) we had about this a long time ago (2010):

Bubba isn't going to listen to "your going to ruin your bore".  I need facts.

Mr. Bubba,

The ascorbic acid based subs are usually no more corrosive than black powder.  The old Black Mag did have potassium perchlorate in it.  But GOEX's Pinnacle and American Pioneer Powder did not.  GOEX claimed that their Pinnacle could be used in a flintlock if you ground up some of the powder and used it in the lock pan.  When I checked it for them it did light off my flinter with temps down near freezing.  But lock time was real slow.  Giving something of a hang-fire effect.

Hodgon makes two subs.  The oldest being Pyrodex.  The patent formulation shows 17 parts of potassium perchlorate.  If you shoot it and don't clean the gun quickly it will micro-pit the bore. Leave it fouled for a good length of time and you will have deep pits in the bore.  Pyrodex will not work in a flinter if you do not first "prime" the breech with a few grains of black powder before loading the main charge of Pyrodex.  Besides using black powder in the lock pan.
THen Hodgdon came out with the 777.  Forget it as far as flinters go.  Iffy at best in the traditional sidelock such as T/C and Lyman markets.  This 777 has a very high ignition temperature and has proven to be more difficult to ignite compared to Pyrodex.  While the 777 MSDS shows potassium perchlorate in the formula I could not find any real amount and the residue did not pit brass or steel test plates.

So none will work reliably in a flinter.  Most will work in percussion guns but 777 is real picky on ignition system design for reliability.

The 777 is pretty hot stuff.  The other subs tend to look a bit weak in a patched ball gun and give the best results behind elongated bullets.  The ascorbic acid based subs are mainly gas generating compositions, producing very little heat expansion of the gases which makes them real weak in some patched ball guns.  In my 28" barrel Trade Rifle the old Clean Shot produced lower velocities once I went over 110 grain charges.  And 110 grain charges of it gave velocities nowhere near smaller charges of black powder.

Bill K.

[WadePatton]

So I'm looking at the MSDS for both products we are discussing here and have to say I don't see a "whole whack" of difference.

Both contain:

charcoal (Goex 8-18%), Pyrodex (8%)

sulfur (Goex 9-20%), Pyrodex (8%)

potassium nitrate (Goex 70-76%, Pyrodex 30%)

and a trace of graphite (to make the granules "slippery"??)

The real difference is Pyrodex's replacement of some of the sulfur and a great amount of the potassium nitrate with potassium perchlorate, which is a "salt" (corrosive to steel) that is used as an oxidizer which can be "safely used in the presence of sulfur".

In it's pure form, Potassium Perchlorate is also used as an anti-thyroid medication - so in and of itself it certainly is not the "poison pill" in the concoction.

You are looking at the pre-combustion components of the chemical equation.  The chemicals don't remain the same in a chemical reaction (fire).  It's the post-chemical-reaction components (the new compounds and residues) that dig the little holes in the metal when given the first opportunity.

[frontier gander]

LOL this is to funny though. How many folks you all know that have died from shooting pyrodex? This IMO is just an old ladies tale. I dont fall for silly things like this. Are these the same scientists that support global warming? 

How many of you have filled a room up with pyrodex smoke just to see if it will knock you out or kill you?

What smoke is good/safe for the human body to inhale?

[d-a]

So I'm looking at the MSDS for both products we are discussing here and have to say I don't see a "whole whack" of difference.

Both contain:

charcoal (Goex 8-18%), Pyrodex (8%)

sulfur (Goex 9-20%), Pyrodex (8%)

potassium nitrate (Goex 70-76%, Pyrodex 30%)

and a trace of graphite (to make the granules "slippery"??)

The real difference is Pyrodex's replacement of some of the sulfur and a great amount of the potassium nitrate with potassium perchlorate, which is a "salt" (corrosive to steel) that is used as an oxidizer which can be "safely used in the presence of sulfur".

In it's pure form, Potassium Perchlorate is also used as an anti-thyroid medication - so in and of itself it certainly is not the "poison pill" in the concoction.

It's the trade secret ingredients that you need to worry about.

d-a

[J Henry]

   Don't be  label  reader,,,,,   you will starve to death. Never read/heard/see of anyone die of Pyrodex Poisoning. As for taking a cup of it into a closet and setting it on fire!!!!!!! There's your clue!!!!!!!! What Wizard did that,,bet Mr.Rodgers never did...
  This subject has been chewed on for a long time!!!I'am sticking with Pyrodex ,, cause I can and it works for me..

[PPatch]

Here is some practical experience of mine between Pyrodex and Goex. All of it in a reproduction cap and ball revolver, I have never used Pyrodex in my flinter.

The nub of it is the Pyrodex is messier and more difficult to clean than Goex. I always ended up using solvents to remove the Pyrodex residue whereas the Goex was and is fine with a water cleanup. When I first purchased the pistol I fired pyro in it exclusively but then went to Goex for the simple reason that I got into shooting flinters. When I switched to Goex in the pistol I discovered the difference, Goex BP was far easier to clean, fires more readily and does not leave a sticky oily black residue. I was also able to fire more cylinders during a shooting session with black powder over Pyrodex because Goex produced a less rapid residue buildup. With Pyrodex I got two to three cylinders before having to wipe the pistol with alcohol, with Goex I could double that before wiping.

To answer mlbrant's question: Would I use Pyrodex if Goex were not easily available, heck yes. I would just have to be very prompt in cleaning the gun after its use and I would use solvents to do the job.

dp

[Bob Roller]

No smoke is safe to be inhaled but some with known ingredients are dangerous.
There was a reason some gunsmiths that reblued modern guns developed heart
conditions and one big reason was the use of cyanide "eggs"in the bluing brew to keep
double barreled shotgun barrels from separating.Cabell Chemical Co.here in WVa used to
keep them in stock for a couple of local reblue shops.
As I said before,I will take the informed word of a chemist over the arguments of the less
knowledgeable.

Bob Roller

[frontier gander]

everything we do with muzzleloaders is a risk. Having our faces 6" from a rock that throws sparks, chips stone, shoots flame into our faces is a health risk, handling the lead balls we use is a risk, casting ammo is a risk. That white smoke that goex produces is a risk.

So the moral of the story, don't light off a can of pyrodex in a sealed up room and you should live another day 

[Dphariss]

can any of the muzzleloading barrels made by GReen Mountain, Colerain, Burton, Rayl ,Getz be used with pyrodex? What about modern shotgun barrel blanks/ If not, what barrels would you suggest to use for building  a gun. BP is really hard to come by where I live.  Thanks

If you use Pyrodex there are some "issues" I would recommend BP with T7 as a second choice. But T7 is made for inlines and shotgun primers.


The Potassium Perchlorate is the problem. Not that BP does not have this. SFAIK T& does not either.

Dan

[Dphariss]

   Don't be  label  reader,,,,,   you will starve to death. Never read/heard/see of anyone die of Pyrodex Poisoning. As for taking a cup of it into a closet and setting it on fire!!!!!!! There's your clue!!!!!!!! What Wizard did that,,bet Mr.Rodgers never did...
  This subject has been chewed on for a long time!!!I'am sticking with Pyrodex ,, cause I can and it works for me..

A lot of guns have though.

Dan