St Louis Hawken Kit build and review (Up-dated with pictures of the build)

[bama]

I just finished this rifle and I wanted to post a few pictures of the kit and build for our group. First I do not claim to be a Hawken expert, as this is just my 2nd Hawken build. I just wanted to share info about the kit and my experience in building it.

I found the overall quality of the parts to be good. The metal parts are cast and all went together well. I had a few opportunities in the pre-carved stock but nothing that I could not work out. Overall I think this rifle turned out pretty good, I will let you be the judge of that.

I would also like to add that this build took approximately 60 hours to build.







This kit came with complete instructions, a full scale drawing and the parts nicely packaged.

More pictures and comments to follow.

Sorry guys I had to take care of a honey do, here are the rest of the photos.







The hooked breech required fitting before soldering together for inletting into the stock.







The breech and tang required some wood removal in the breech area and in the barrel channel for the breech and barrel to set completely down. The pre-inlet for the tang was a little on the loose side but with a little work I mangaed to close most of the gaps.



The triggers were already fit to the guard which saved a lot of work in drilling and tapping the holes.







This is the pre-inlet for the lock. As you can see there was plenty of wood left for final fitting if the lock.





As you can see in these pictures the hammer as received was out of alignment a good bit with the nipple. I had to heat and bend the hammer to get things lined up properly.





The dovetails for the barrel wedges and the sights were pre-located and cut which saved a lot of time.  As you can see in the photos the fit was good.



The length of pull was set at 13 3/4" which was a good length for my customer. You could shorten it up if needed but if you need a longer pull you should state that when you order the kit.



With the barrel and tang inlet now the nose cap, entry thimble and barrel wedges can be installed.







The nose cap was relieved to much in the pre-carve process and I had to build up the area under the nose cap with bedding compond for the nose cap to fit properly.



This photo shows the rib which is screwed to the barrel. The rib is long on both ends and has to be cut you can fit. As you can see in this photo the front and middle thimbles have to be soldered onto the rifle. It is best to do this after the rib has been fit to the barrel and cut to length.







Sorry the pictures of the installation of the barrel wedges and plates did not turn out good. I had to drill and dress up the slots in the stock for the wedges and then inlet the plates. The toe plate pictures did not turn out either but the toe plate was pre-inlet and needed just a little wood removal to get a good fit.

The pictures of the entry pipe installation were blurry also. The entry pipe was pre-inlet but still required some fitting but was no more difficult than a normal rear pipe inlet. You have to be careful not to get the inside of the rear pipe deeper than the channel in the nose cap. The instructions say to inlet the rear pipe before the nose cap but I disagree. I think the nose cap should be fit first that way you can get a good fit on the nose cap and then match the depth of the the inside of the rear pipe to the channel in the nose cap.

Here are the pictures of the finished rifle. All in all I was please with how this turned out. Like I said I am not a Hawken expert so any of you guys out there that see something that should have been done different please speak up.

All comments are welcome.









Here is the happy customer in my shop with his new rifle.



If anyone is interested in building a good Hawken they should consider this set of parts. I would not call it a beginner kit but a lot of the work has been done for you. The pre-carved stock had a few problems, it was over inlet in a few places and the cutter got a little wide in the tang area, but other than that it worked fine. The price of the parts are a little on the pricey side but then again you usually get what you pay for.

One thing that did not come with the parts was a ram rod tip. I had to make a tip for the rod that came with the parts. But a drill and tap was included in the parts for drilling and tapping the holes to hold the nose cap and the rear thimble to the stock, so I guess that was a fair trade.

[bama]

Has anyone used these parts before?

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Jim, What size barrel & bore? total weight?  I am interested to hear what the Hawken experts on this board have to say about the overall architecture and furniture etc??

based on the price I would say they are very proud of these rifles!!

[bama]

Tim i thougt there would be a few more comments but you never know how folks take to a post.

The barrel was made by Ed Rayl and is a 1 1/8" tapered to 1" and a 54 cal.

As far as what it weighs I an not sure although I would guess about 13 pounds. I do know it loads smooth and shoots a nice group at 50 yards. I shot it about a half dozen time in test firing and sighting and it shot sweet. The second shot by the owner was a dead center X from a rest so needless to say he was happy.

Yea Tim thougt i would at least get a thanks for the info or your rifle looks like $#@* and i totally screwed up a good set of parts or sonething. But hey thats life!

[gwill]

That's a great looking rifle. Sounds like it's a sweet shooter too. How long is the barrel?

[WadePatton]

The pics weren't up last time i looked, so there was nothing to comment about-besides a bag o parts.

Good looking rifle and good job putting it together and writing it up to share with us.  Thanks.

Hope your customer brings you more.

[Chuck Burrows]

based on the images posted and comments (
i.e. an Ed Rayle barrel?) this is one of the Hawken Shoppe(?) kits
https://www.thehawkenshop.com/hawken_rifles.htm

if so the kit is based on an original Sam Hawken rifle of the 1850's

overall it appears to be fine job of recreating this style..  hopefully Don Stith or one the other better educated students will chime in - ('ve been studying them since 1962 when I saw my first S Hawken in an article in Guns magazine by James Servin) and sincehave examined at least 12 originals but consider myself as a neophyte) compared to some others

[bama]

Wade the barrel is 36" long. For offhand the rifle hangs really nice but you don't want hold it up there very long.

Chuck you are correct it is a Hawken Shop parts kit.

[Mtn Meek]

That's a fine looking rifle, Bama. It all looks good to me.

I'm glad to see someone post some detail pictures of The Hawken Shop's parts. I was curious if they were still using the molds that Art Ressel developed in the 1970's. From your pictures, I would say, yes, they are.

As Chuck Burrows mentioned, Art Ressel made copies of the iron parts from a couple of original S. Hawken rifles in his collection. I recognize the breech plug, lock plate and hammer, butt plate, trigger guard, triggers, and nose cap as the same or similar to Ressel's castings from the 1970's-1980's. If you had compared the trigger plate to Ron Long's design, you might have noticed that it is 1-1/2" shorter.



These, plus the pre-carve stock, make a good guide if someone is careful and observant. You did a good job on the lock panels, minimizing the amount of wood around the lock plate.

I recently acquired a Hawken rifle that was purchased in Art Ressel's shop in 1981. It may have been made by Keith Neubauer. Ressel had five or six custom builders that he would contract to build rifles from his parts so he had a few completed rifles in his shop to sell in addition to his parts sets. Neubauer was one of these.

My rifle has a Bill Large barrel that is .54 caliber, 34" long, and tapers from 1-1/8" at breech to 1" at the muzzle. It weighs 10 lbs. Depending on the barrel length, I would suspect the rifle you built would weigh no more the 11 lbs.

You stated that you preferred to fit the nose cap before inletting the entry pipe. Typically, people like to have the barrel in the stock while they are inletting the entry pipe. That way, they can check with a rod as they go to make sure that the entry pipe lines up with the rib and the ramrod hole in the forearm. Then they fit the nose cap to line up with the entry pipe and trim the under rib to the proper length. The fact that you made it work the other way indicates how well done the pre-carve was.

Thanks for the post.

Phil Meek

[gumboman]

This is the same rifle I saw at the CLR show last weekend. I had the opportunity to handle this gun and look it over carefully. The workmanship is first class. Everything is well done and true to the Hawken architecture. I have been a student of the Hawken for more than 35 years and own two replicas myself which gives me a critical eye. This gun is dead on the style that came out of J&S Hawken shop in the early 19th century, and replicates exactly what any mountain man of the era would expect to get from Jake and Sam Hawken.

The owner of this weapon can be proud indeed, and take great comfort in knowing that he owns a fine contemporary Hawken that is true to form.

Very nice job Jim. As you say you might not be an expert on the Hawken, but this gun demonstrates your talent and skill at gun building enables you to take on any gun project and turn it into a work of art. You should be proud of yet another beautiful gun to come out of your shop.

I sure wish I had the skill and knowledge you have at muzzleloader building. I don't know how you do it but I sure admire your work.

[galamb]

From the pics it looks good. I do like the parts - believable, more-so that some of the castings sold by "other" vendors.

I built a similar rifle a few years back, mostly styled after the Carson Hawken.

I used a 31" barrel, 1 1/8" tapering to 1" and the rifle finished up at 10 1/2 pounds.

With a 36" barrel i would "guesstimate" you have about 11 1/2 pounds of rifle there.

Although I love these rifles I (personally) found the 10 1/2 pounds "too much" to hump through the woods and sold the rifle.

If I did it again I would forego the more typical barrel dimensions and go with a 1" to 7/8" taper in order to shed a pound or so.

[pushboater]

Bama, The rifle looks great and it sounds like it's a good shooter, but I'm wondering why you soldered together the hooked breech?  Being able to pop the barrel off in 30 seconds or less sure makes cleaning a lot easier. Is that something the customer requested? Not that it really matters all that much.  Just curious.

Capt. David

[wattlebuster]

I'll make it short an sweet as Im no expert at anything an just say I like it. Great job

[Darrin McDonal]

Soldering the two parts together is just an easy accurate way of in letting the hooked breech/ tang in"perfect" alignment. Then undo the solder joint.
Darrin

[pushboater]

Never thought of that.  But then again there's a heck of a lot I don't know! Great Job.

[Darrin McDonal]

Yah, when I first heard of that advice, I was just scratching my head looking over it before taking a chisel to it.  Then I talked with someone (?) And the light bulb went on. I thought the same thing- nice trick!!! It saved me quite a bit of frustration. These Hawkens are so different architecturally from longrifle it's like flipping to the other side of the brain.
Darrin

[bama]

Sorry I did not explain that the soldered together breech and tang were separated after in letting into the stock. I had heard of this method prior to building my first rifle and it worked well so I applied it to this second build as well.

Mtn Meek
Thanks for your comments. I will try to explain my dilemma with the nose cap and rear thimble a little better.

I did inlet the rear pipe 1st, A couple of problems evolved from this.  Working to the pre-inlet for the rear pipe I almost did not set the pipe far enough to the rear to get the nose cap to set flush were the NC meets the stock. Then I assumed (yes a mistake on my part) that I had to take some wood out from underneath the barrel of the pipe. This was a mistake on my part and I inlet the barrel of the rear pipe a little to deep.

The pre-inlet for the nose cap relieve to much wood for the cap to fit correctly and attach with a screw and allow the ram rod to align with the RR hole. I had to build the area under the nose cap with Micro Bed in order to achieve proper alignment. This is when I discovered that I had inlet the rear pipe barrel a little to deep, this it fixed with a little bedding compound also.

This is why I suggested nose cap first. You can make sure that you get a good wood to metal fit where the cap meets the stock and proper alignment with the RR hole. Then there will be no mistake about how deep to go with the inside of the barrel of the rear pipe.

Regardless, it was a well thought out set of parts that went together well and a pleasure to build.

[bama]

Thanks gumboman and others for your kind comments. As Darrin said this style rifle is a lot different build than a long rifle and presents different opportunities.

Glad you like it and I hope this May help others that may be thinking about a Hawken build.

[oakridge]

Mtn Meek wrote:
I recently acquired a Hawken rifle that was purchased in Art Ressel's shop in 1981. It may have been made by Keith Neubauer. Ressel had five or six custom builders that he would contract to build rifles from his parts so he had a few completed rifles in his shop to sell in addition to his parts sets. Neubauer was one of these.

If Keith made it, you've got a fine rifle. I'm sure his gun building was as good as his restoration work.


AND Bama,

Very nice Hawken. I like it.

[Robin Henderson]

Jim, I did notice the Hawken on your table at the CLA show. I'm assuming it's the same one.  I have a weak spot for Hawkens and I thought it was very well done.

I guess I was too distracted by that short barreled transitional rifle on your table and I failed to compliment you on your other guns....My apologies.

[Topknot]

Jim, you did a fine , fine job on that thar hawken, seed it right off!

                                                 topknot

[Don Stith]

There is a good chance that Keith did the final finish on the one Mr Meek has.  Except for a few of the earlier ones, Keith did all the final shaping and finish. Art was not satisfied with the way some came out from the other builders.  He continued to have the basic assembly done by some of them, but they went to Keith in the white. I am not sure the breech is the same one used back then. Those tangs were all crooked out of the mold and had to be straightened before use. Not sure if I have any left in the storage bin or not, but think they were skinnier .  The original the tang mold was made from had a bend in it.  The lock plate looks a little different too ,but the hammer is the same. They always needed a little twisting to line up with the nipple.  That is not unique to their parts.
 Took a weeks vacation to help Keith build five of those things.  He did three and I did two that week. Had to go back to work to rest up.
 You cannot see the important details like transition of stock to the butt plate and forearm to lock panels in photos. so will not comment on the build. Overall appearance is nice and the customer is happy. That is all that matters

[gumboman]

Bama, this is just an observation based on the photos of the components, and you can correct me if I am wrong. The stock inletting work on the kit from the Hawken Shop seem pretty rough and crude. Maybe it is just me, but for the price of those components I would expect a higher level of craftsmanship from the Hawken Shop.

What is your opinion of the quality of workmanship and value of the kit from the Hawken Shop? Having made a few guns from kits and also a couple from stock blanks, my experience has been that a badly inletted gun stock is much harder to make into a nice finished gun than on that you can do yourself from a blank.

I have a future project in mind and would like to build a nice Bridger Hawken with large bore and tapered barrel. Seems to me all the components and a nice piece of wood in the form of a blank can be bought for considerably less than the Hawken Shop kit.

Am I wrong about that?
Gene

[bama]

Gumboman

The metal parts were first class in my opinion. The stock was the only place that I felt should have been a little better quality in how the inletting was cut. As i mentioned the tang was a little over cut in a couple of places but with some judicial metal work I was able to make this work. The wood under the nose cap was cut to thin to properly align the nose cap and RR hole and i had to build this area up with bedding compound to get things lined up.

The wood itself was good hard maple, the figure was a little plain but I thought worked well for the rifle and the customer was very happy with it. I did not specify fancy wood but for the price that was charged for the parts i did expect a quality piece of wood and it was. It just did not have much figure, a little more curl would have been nice.

[Don Getz]

In 1970 I built my first rifle, a copy of a Herman Rupp, relief carved no less.  My second rifle built in 1973 was a J.P.Beck with
a Paris octagon to round barrel, and in 1975 I made a copy of a Joe Long rifle.  In 1977 I took early retirement from the state
Health department, and my brother Dick and I bought the Paris barrel equipment.   When I left the state, a friend wanted me
to build a Hawken rifle.  Al was a big guy, about 6'4", but slender.   Al was one of the few guys that went to the Eastern Sports
and Outdoor Show and fought the bear, and won.   They had this trained bear, with a muzzle, and you could wrestle him.
Somehow, Al got him off balance and actually got the bear down.  His trainer said, better let him up, he gets mean.  Back to
his hawken.  We went to Friendship in August of 1977.  I purchased a Hawken stock from Pecatonica in "birdseye" maple'
that shows you how much I knew about Hawken's.  Also bought all of the other parts I needed.  I made a 1" straight barrel in
54 cal., 36" long.   It actually looked pretty good, charged him $700, if I remember correctly.  Al said, "you'd better get ready
to do another one because if I shoot a bear with it, I am going to have a full mount with the bear holding the gun".  This was
my fourth gun........just thought you guys needed a good laugh.  Had a phone call from Al a few months ago, nearly 40 years
since I have seen him.  Still has the gun, must get him up to the shop and bring the gun along.............Don